welcome to sober Sunrise a podcast bringing you AA speaker meetings with stories of experience strength and Hope from around the world we bring you several new speakers weekly so be sure to subscribe we hope to always remain an adree podcast so if you’d like to help us remain self-supporting please visit our website at sober-remix than a sober Sunrise we hope that you enjoy today’s speaker pieces of literature that we have is uh found in the uh uh oh let’s let’s start okay Jay the alcoholic and God’s doing for me today what I couldn’t do for myself um one of my favorite pieces of AA literature aside from our big book and by the way this is the fourth edition of The Big Book of alcoholic synonymous if you’re not using it you’re not using the book that the new guy’s using if you’re not familiar with the new stories that are in here how the heck are you going to be of service to somebody who’s new in the fellowship oh well my notes are all in it well put them in the other book you mean you haven’t grown a little bit since then just an opinion thanks J um I came in in 197 79 the SEC the Third Edition came out in 1978 nobody was telling me Oh my big book is better than yours my stories are better than yours oh page 449 oh I don’t know what do they call it nowadays it’s called acceptance is the answer is the name of the story in the book Call It by its right name uh anyway just a little opinion and I also got and I got sobern in AA that wasn’t 164 pages you know it’s the whole book it’s the whole book um just to Stir It Up a little bit uh but another piece of literature that I really like is the language of the heart and in the language of the heart there’s uh some correspondence between Bill Wilson our co-founder who in 1961 because a lot of his mentors were had had passed um he wrote a letter to Carl Jung and uh and it was uh regarding the uh uh uh patient that Yung had whose name was Roland Hazard and Roland Hazard was the guy who carried the message to the guy that carried the message to Bill and he was a member of the Oxford Group but he had he had all the money in the world and uh and he still couldn’t get sober and anyway so Bill wrote a letter describing the program sent some pamphlets and some books to Dr Yung and this is the the the letter that uh Yung uh replied Dear Mr W your letter has been very welcome indeed I had no news from Roland H anymore and often wondered what had been his fate our conversation which he had adequately reported to you had an aspect which he did not know the reason that I could not tell him everything was that though in those days I had to be exceedingly careful of what I said I found that I was misunderstood in every possible way thus I was very careful when I talked to Roland but what I really thought about was the result of many uh my experiences with many men of his kind alcoholics his craving for alcohol was the equivalent on a low level of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness expressed in medieval language the union with God how could one formulate such an Insight in a language that is not misunderstood in our days the only right and legitimate way to such an experience is that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path which leads you to a higher understanding you might be led to that goal by an act of Grace or through a personal and honest contact with friends or through a higher education of the Mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism I see from your letter that Roland has chosen the second way which was under the circumstances obviously the best I am strongly convinced that the Vil principle prevailing in the world leads the unrecognized spiritual need into danger if not counteracted either by real religious Insight or by the a protective wall of human Community an ordinary man not protected by an action from above and isolated in society cannot resist the power of evil which is called very aply the devil but the use of such words arouses so many mistakes that one can only keep aloof from them as much as possible these are the reasons why I could not give a full and sufficient explanation to Roland but I am risking it with you because I conclude from your very decent and honest letter that you have acquired a point of view above the misleading platitudes one usually hears about alcoholism you see alcohol in Latin is spiritus and you use the same word for the highest religious experience as well as for the most depraving poison The Helpful formula therefore is spiritus Contra spiritum thank you again for your kind letter I remain Carl Yung so it’s we need the spirit to go against the spirits of alcohol and uh so and what we do on Retreat what I believe that we do on Retreat and what we do in Alcoholics Anonymous is that we form a protective wall of human community and when a guy comes into the Parker men stag the first thing we do is we take him and we bring him up over that wall and we get him in the middle of the pack and we start to teach him these things by first it’s like an honest contact with friends about you know getting comfortable enough to be able to come back to the meeting and then getting a sponsor and then going through the steps which then lead us to uh this higher understanding that leads us beyond the confines of mere rationalism Beyond just this normal stuff that we W walk around in thinking that this is reality and uh so I love this I love this letter and it’s in the language of the heart or you can Google Google it it’s on uh it’s uh on the internet like just about everything is nowadays so the Oxford Group which all the early members of Alcoholics Anonymous were members of the Oxford Group Bill and Lois went to Oxford group meetings the first three years of the of their experience of uh his sobriety um and and what it was was It was kind of an Evangelical Christian Movement it was not a sect but it was a group of women and men that had found a way a set of spiritual exercises that relieved them from their problem and uh and what they always talked about was is that you don’t have to believe anything but what we ask you to do is to make an experiment what we’re asking you to do is make an honest experiment so this weekend for the next about 30 hours 27 hours because that’s all we’re going to be together is I’d like to ask you to make an experiment and the experiment is this let’s pretend that God is everything you don’t have to tell anybody you don’t have to define God but let’s just pretend that it’s everything and then come Sunday afternoon when you go home before you have the first fight with the wife um because of course we’ve all been out being spiritual come home and there’s immediately conflict um but anyway that that what we that that that what you do is is take a look at what what happened in your thinking and in your heart over over the course of this weekend now as far as a framework for this Retreat I like to there Bill Wilson’s Mentor in the Oxford Group was a guy by the name of Samuel Moore Shoemaker and Sam shoemaker’s hands are all over the program of Alcoholics Anonymous guys that he worked steps with were the guys that like got the Oxford Group started in akan so that bill could find a meeting when he was there um and he was a he was a remarkable guy remarkable remarkable man and he said that there are four things that uh if we’re going to have a clear channel to this God as we understand God if we’re going to be able to actually work the 10th and the 11th step if when we ask for guidance in our day that we’re plugged in instead of just running around blind um there are four four things which needed putting right in my life okay the first is is there was a person that I would not forgive there was a person that I would not forgive second there was a restitution that I would not make there was a restitution that I would not make third there was a doubtful pleasure that I would not give up how did he know huh and fourth there was a sin in the long past that I would not confess now again when I say God I’m not saying what you think I’m saying okay and I’m I’ll be using terms that are I love this thing about being medieval language the word sin comes from the sound of an arrow missing a mark missing missing the target that’s what what it comes from so I don’t know what it is that you what kind of baggage you may hang on that word but anyway anyway sin is an air in the long past that I would not confess then he said when these things were straightened out I not only came into a new power and release but for the first time I began to get daily guidance which I knew could be relied upon Sam was a remarkable remarkable character and uh and I have uh found that this is a great way that if you get a guy that comes to you in crisis that you can go through and and so during the course of this weekend we’re going to look at these four points um so we’re a group of men and probably the most one of the most important questions that we have is why did God create women and in my in my time in alcoholic synonymous what I’ve come up with is is so that men would learn to pray honestly because there is nothing that brings us to our knees there is nothing that flattens our ego like the higher power okay so um you know I talk to you I come into this this this Manhattan Beach Club and I’m uh I’m I’m running around and I I start working after 30 days and I start attending bar and one evening this creature comes in and we start running around together and God’s will was operative in my life few weeks later she moves the husband out gives me the keys to her vet obviously I’m working a very bitching spiritual program and then about four or five weeks after that she decides she wants what I really have and she wants to get sober and so I bring her to the meetings and introduce her to all the old teach her to sit down in the brain damage section in the front where my sponsored set me and life is large you know I have it so that you know she’s I’m not really we were involved before she came into AA so it’s not like I’m taking advantage of a newcomer right and so anyway we’re going around we we go running around for about four months and uh then she leaves me for another woman and brings her to the group and they sit in the seats that we used to sit in and I learned that great thing that many of us experience in Alcoholics Anonymous of cruising the parking lot looking at the cars trying to decide whether or not we can go into the meetings I I know that doesn’t happen you know with you guys but it happens in Southern California and uh and so I’m just beside myself I’m just all screwed up and uh and I go to the I go to the Alano Club and and uh I’m sitting out front waiting for the club to open and there’s Irish Dan now I don’t know how you get sober without Irish Dan you know I mean you and Dan had been sober at that time about 30 years and he he says what’s wrong with you kid so I you know was just waiting to be able to once again tell this tale of Woe I’ve got to you know it’s like any problem that we have any problem that we really you know that we think we have there’s the two-minute version there’s the 8-minute version and then there’s the box set you know where if you get somebody in the coffee shop you can give them an hour and a half and you never breathe once right because you don’t want them to give you any any real experience strength and hope so Dan says well what’s your prayer life K like kid what what are you talking about you know I didn’t say that didn’t you listen to me says what’s your prayer life like well I said you know well I I’m a I’m an AA guy you know I got like six months of sobriety and uh so you know when I get up in the morning I was taught in Alcoholics Anonymous that prayer was to be honest and uh and to be personal so when I get up in the morning what I’m doing is I’m getting down on my knees and I’m going help cuz I really I was I was really really thirsty for about four months I mean like every third thought was a drink and uh and then I’d uh say the Serenity Prayer 18800 times during the course of the day I’d stop at a couple of meetings I’d say the prayers at the meetings and when I got home at night I go thanks cu I couldn’t believe that I got home sober I didn’t have anything to drink that entire day so that’s my prayer life and he says well kid you know that the say in the Serenity Prayer 18,000 times was all fine and good he said but we’re going to give you we’re going to make you a real prayerful man he says you got a job right kid yeah I got a job see I got sober before newcomers had a union the union started in about 1987 um and uh and so like like if you even started to talk about a feeling in a meeting or anywhere around Alcoholics Anonymous an Oldtimer just throw you up against the wall and go do you have a job what and uh he said so you got a job kid right yeah I got a job and he said you’re alcoholic so you drive to work the same way no matter what every time right yeah right I said okay so this is what I want you to do I want you to get a God Spot I want you to get a God Spot when you’re on your drive to work I want you to pick a place where you will make a conscious contact all I want you to do is just say hi and then when you go home from work you do the same thing so I have doubled your prayers right there it was true it was true and an interesting for me it was when my car would uh be going down Vista delmare and i’ I’d turn you hit the Pacific Ocean and i’ I’d see the the ocean I’d just go oh yeah I’d go hi now the Great thing about hi so I’m going help hi hi thanks the nice thing about high is is that it’s an invitation to a conversation and it would not after a little while maybe a couple days it wouldn’t stop with just high and I’d start to think about like people that I knew that were having trouble in the meeting or about people that I maybe was in conflict in my life and what it did is it dra drew me out of myself because see I am selfish and self-centered the whole world revolves around me but that saying hi what it did is is it brought me out of myself this was such a remarkable occurrence that uh you know then he a couple weeks later he got me inside he said how’s it going kid well it’s going good said okay now we’re going to crank it up a little bit he said do you ever have any trouble at work how did he know he Saidi want you to get you know how in the boxing ring there’s a neutral corner he said I want you to get a God Spot at work so I’m 10 and bar at the time you know it’s not doesn’t really give itself to you know dropping to my knees in prayer and uh but there was a part over on the on on the rail where I could go and if I put my hand on it the big guy and I both knew what what I was doing I was saying hi and I might need a little help here and so all of a sudden I got this spot at work where I can go now how many of you guys live with other people don’t live by yourselves okay same thing works in the home you don’t have to tell anybody that when I come over at this window sill and I go like this I’m praying but I know in my heart of hearts and whatever it is this creative principle is knows that what I’m doing is is I’m reaching outside of me so suddenly I’ve gone from two periods of prayer that were kind of jacknifed into just me doing something that I really didn’t feel comfortable with to about 8 to 10 times that I was making conscious contact and that’s all it is that’s all it is is just being conscious for a moment that there’s something going on outside of my mind which is a pretty stunning stretch because when I got here I was really important to me and the great thing is is that I’m I’m uh I’m kind of clued into the clued into the joke now now another great thing to do is terrorizing new guys with this concept now I’m brutal because I can do it now you know uh they don’t swing at me very often but I like to really with them and I’ll go up and say um you know I’ve got a really personal relationship with Jesus and Jesus has revealed to me that his favorite thing to do is to have a cigarette with a new guy and I’m absolutely sincere about it you know I would never you know you you drop the the Jesus part but the truth is is that every new guy just about smokes right and so what you do is you get him to put God or just a g on their cigarette pack and every time they go out to have a cigarette that they look and find some place where you know cuz they got to go outside now and to look and to find a place and to burn one with the big guy and if a guy smokes three packs a day he’s the most prayerful man in the meeting right but this is how we draw ourselves out of ourselves I like to call these stupid God tricks you know because if you do them something happens and try it try it and see what happens so uh so that’s what my conscious contact is it’s drawing me out of myself whatever it is that I can do that draws me out of me that’s why Alcoholics Anonymous meetings are so wonderful and uh you know meetings are uh spiritual chemotherapy they you know my disease has no idea what’s going on when I go to it now I can’t again I you know it’s pre-union AA so um I had to go to a meeting every day in my first three years oh my god well okay so I got a day off for laundry when I had about six months over after my 9mon chip but what happened is I went to a meeting every day and in my day the most important thing that I was doing was going to a meeting see to me Alcoholics Anonymous is the most important thing in my life still is still is and uh and so I need to put myself in the consciousness of Alcoholics Anonymous and what is the consciousness of Alcoholics Anonymous first and foremost is is that we don’t have to drink today and that it is safe here and are your meetings safe one of the responsibilities about being a dynamic men’s stag is making sure that when you’re at the mixed meetings that the Predators know that we know who they are and that we make sure that our meetings are safe for our sisters that’s our responsibility and that when we’re out and about that we are looking for how it is that we are able to carry this message and make sure that the environment is safe for men and women to come into and recover from a seemingly hopeless State of Mind and Body um so is it safe here now this is our first retreat and it’s so what we’re we’re doing this weekend is amazingly important because what we’re doing here is we’re establishing a Consciousness that will go on from here to October to next year you know on and on and on and we need to make sure that this is a safe place here so I’m going to implore you that what is said here stays on this mountain unless the other man that’s invol you know the person that’s involved gives his permission because we’re going to be doing some important spiritual exercises up here and it needs to be safe and you know our our co-founder uh Dr Bob you know he had like a five minute talk his last talk and one of the things he said was is that we have to watch out for gossip and what is Gossip gossip is any conversation that I have about somebody that’s not in the room um you know so we have to be careful with I mean as long as we know what we’re doing you know but but let’s be let’s be let’s be conscious about this so is this a safe place here now yeah thank you um so uh this weekend um what we’re going to do is we’re going to be doing some self-examination and we’re going to be doing some sharing now you don’t have to you don’t have to you know bust out anything that you that you don’t want to but there are some things sometimes when they’re shared at a group level that if it’s safe um that uh that it’s very very helpful that’s even you know there’s one thing about doing it with your sponsor but if if we share it at a group level we may find out that we’re not quite as unique as we think Sam Shoemaker uh said that uh there’s only one sin there’s only one mistake and that’s believing that I am different there is only one mistake believing that I am different one of the reasons that I believe that alcoholism is a dis disease more today than I did when I came in is the fifth steps that I’ve heard and believe me I have heard a number of them and they’re all the same I mean we’re alcoholic males we’re just not that creative you know I mean the shock for our sisters is finding out how truly shallow we are some of us may be a little more flamboyant than others but we all destroy ourselves in exactly the same way so um what I would like to do is uh oh so what uh what we need to do is we we’ll get together and we’ll talk a little bit about see in a room of alcoholic men there is a tremendous amount of pain that’s in this room and that can be left here or a piece of it can be left here so like first of all we’re going to get together in small groups and I’d like you to share about why are you here share about whether or not you believe that this place is safe that you’re willing to make a commitment a spiritual commitment to making this place safe not just for you but for alcoholics for generations to come my home groups Retreat we’ve been at our current location for for 15 years I think and uh and it’s a it’s a spin-off from a retreat house that closed and and that retreat’s been gone for over 45 years and uh and then the other thing is is there something that you’d like to leave here now what is it that I wish was not true about myself a friend of mine taught me that uh that that how do you how do you know that you’re living in God’s will if I can tell my daughter my wife and my sponsor what’s going on at this moment and uh for me what I wish wasn’t true about myself is that occasionally I know this doesn’t happen to any of the men in the Parker men stag but on occasion um when I’m on the internet I end up at sites that I can’t even defend to myself much less to the people that I love and uh it violates my wife’s trust it makes it so that my uh that my computer is not a safe place for her to go and it my computer’s in our home and uh and I’m I’m real good about dropping it for a period of time and then every now and then I’ll pick it up again and I know that it isn’t anything that people get strung out on but I’ll go on a run for a few weeks with it and I it’s just I feel horrible about it and that’s the thing that that of of everything in my life like like I I say to new guys if you think I’m full of come and spend the day with me see how I treat my wife see how I treat my employer see how I treat my cat see how I treat my daughter you know but of of everything that uh that’s the thing that I’m most embarrassed about about who I am and my personal conduct okay and uh and I would like to be able to leave that here so um again you don’t have to drop this out loud to anybody up front but if you want to share about that you can now we’re going to go get to the most difficult part of the retreat which is that we’re going to count off we’ve uh and so this is really really hard um because I’m thinking about me the whole time they’re counting and then when it gets to me I’m still thinking of me so and we’re going to get together in small groups we’re going to get together in small groups hopefully you won’t be you know hanging out with your room Buzz because again we’re creating a different SP uh uh uh Dynamic um so uh there’s eight groups you know you can go outside you can there are some small rooms you can go upstairs you can put a couple of groups in here spend about 45 minutes I figure if we’ve got eight groups of eight you know that everybody can share and uh uh in an hour uh easily and then we’ll we’ll come back here at uh is that a at 11:00 um at 11:15 so you got time to smoke you got time to share and then we’ll be back here at 11:15 so 1 2 3 four 5 night last I’m now going to introduce you to my fabulous wife Adele and uh you’re going to hear a lot about her this weekend because uh the great fact is is that I have a so her home and it’s a wonderful wonderful thing and she’s a uh she’s brilliant she’s a uh aside from a lot of things about her she’s a she’s a columnist and she has a way of putting things in words that’s really cool so along the weekend I’m going to read you a few columns from her of hers the television and radio have been turned off in our home and and my car for a month now coincidentally during that time I have not been afraid as a lifelong television Watcher and noise addict I began to watch tele I began to watch my television habits change a number of years ago my husband Jay killed his television before and seldom watched the several I brought into the relationship he was thank goodness gracious during the years of my incessant watching and simply left the room when I grabbed the remote sometimes I turned on the TV so that he would leave he eventually figured that out but he was kind nevertheless some years ago my compulsion to watch Prime Time television dropped away for many years I had found daytime television to be loud and violent and frankly ridiculous and the commercials unbearable and even louder I learned that the volume of commercials is uh turned up yet I watched Jerry Springer or Judge Judy or whatever fit the where did those people come from Paradigm as if my head were craned toward a freeway accident knowing that gawking was inappropriate but not able to stop then I turned the channels to cable TV and started watching better nonsense for a few more years I found myself thinking that I ought to know what was going on in the world so I watch CNN too concurrent to the television experi experiment I increased my exposure to spiritual books workshops tapes and CDs of spiritual teachings Joel Goldsmith Barbara mole e artola and Byron Katie to public radio I had long before abandoned Network radio but mostly I listen to the radio interestingly enough I began to correlate my anxiety to what I was listening to and watched it decrease during the discussion of spiritual truth though spending most of my radio time listening to wonderful shows like this American life in La Theater Works Radio Theater I often listen to the BBC and national public radio news I found the reporting deeper and coverage at much higher quality level Something in Me still believed I was supposed to be apprised about what was going on in the world the discovery I made however was that constant intake of Broadcast News however reported instilled in me a river of Fear One Drop at a time two years ago I stopped watching the news completely about the same time I li limited my watching to HBO Showtime IH or IFC and the Sundance Channel still I turned the television on whenever things got got quiet I felt lonely or I felt bored I surmised that sex in the city and The Sopranos were more artistic than American Idol and felt appropriately Superior Jay learned never to approach the bedroom between 8 and 10:00 on Sunday nights this summer I watched myself spend hours in bed watching TV although I had many many things to do I couldn’t get up to do them if I did get up I brought my projects to the television or the television to the projects I watched and watched myself do that and recognized at some point that I was powerless to do anything else thinking I should stop or judging my behavior as bad or good or lazy or whatever was less than useless it actually produced more of the undesired effect and then I stayed for 2 months watching the television from my bed and observing myself then one day in July I didn’t turn on the TV it’s been off since perhaps I’ll turn it on again one day but the need to is gone I find that remarkable during those hours Frozen to the television I discovered that the story of my life has been about my attempts to postpone now I attempted to do that with activity radio paralysis and particularly television I did it because I was afraid of what this moment now might contain that it would not be good enough that it should be different and so on so I tried to make now stop because now the only thing that ever is is impossible to stop I ended up merely distracting myself in doing so I missed the joy of being life is a process of Awakening until a certain level of Awakening me had already taken place the television and the radio had to be blasting I understand that and am simply grateful now for the shift it’s amazing how beautifully long a day is when one is in it kill your television the only reason that Sports exist is to sell us beer and trucks okay so we were I was talking talking a little while ago about meetings why I go to meetings why do I go to meetings well this creative principle this God as I understand God the universe or whatever knows that I’m a fairly busy guy and that uh so but God as I understand God knows that on Monday night I’m at the Hermosa Beach men’s stag on Tuesday evenings there’s a meditation group for men at my house we spend a half hour listening to a spiritual teacher at ARA and then we spend a half an hour uh being silent together Wednesday nights uh I’m at a I’m at my uh my spiritual teacher’s house uh going through a tape series with him and a and a group of friends a group of women and men Thursday nights I’m at the 11-step group of Alcoholics Anonymous and then Friday Saturday and Sunday I’m usually involved in some kind of service activity along these lines um and uh but God doesn’t have to even think about where to find me because it knows oh it’s Thursday the 11 St um when I was uh 13 years sober uh I hit a wall in my up until then I was sober man armed with steps Concepts and traditions able to transcend any life situation with the application of the spiritual principles of alcoholics synonymous you know I it used to be that uh that when I went to speak at AA meetings or when I was called to participate I was so serious man I made the the paint crack because lives are on the line here untreated alcoholism running through alcoholic synonymous we need to stop it you have a slipper give him to me I’ll save his life and there was nothing I hated more than some dried up old geek and alcoholic synonomous that did say well he’ll get around to doing it when he’ll get around to doing it I thought those people were killing people in AA but after about three decades with you they’ll uh do it when they’re going to do it um I uh I got involved with a a woman you know one of the I got involved with a woman when I was just uh over a year sober and uh Jacqueline and uh she was hopping cocktails at the bar that I was working at and um we ended up getting married and uh and it was very very interesting being married to somebody that wasn’t sober and uh after a little while she uh she wouldn’t drink much because she’s living with soberman and she’d make D grating things about when I’d go off to my meetings and once or twice a week she’d just go out and blow off some steam with her friends didn’t look like alcoholism to me then I made a don’t ever do this okay say darling you know when you eat that volume it kind of changes the way that you are cuz she quit cold turkey and got really angry quit doing those freeze dried martinis and uh and we uh after another couple years it just was obvious that we were going to have to split to me now I’d been raised in a family that had been split so I was never going to you know for me to get divorced it was just not going to happen and I uh I but I knew that this was what was up and I was going on Retreat and I I went up on Retreat and I on that Retreat I told the truth to the guys about what was going on and I turned my will and my wife over to the care of God As I understood God while I was up there and the most amazing thing happened she started going to the alanon family groups a couple days later 6 months later she came into Alcoholics Anonymous and she’s uh 23 years sober now and Jacqueline uh when she got sober it was really wonderful I was six years sober at the time almost and I got to go back to the meetings go to seven meetings a week as Secretary of the big speaker meeting in our neighborhood I got more spun es dur between about 1984 the year uh before she got sober and 1987 probably did the best work I ever did in Alcoholics Anonymous you know I mean we were we were out there we were picking a liquor stores and singing AA hyms man we were we were on fire you know and it was it was a wonderful thing and you know if you haven’t been on fire you know ask yourself why now I know that this men’s stag group’s full of a bunch of guys that are on fire and that’s what we do man we run we run together we feed off each other and uh um but Jacqueline and I were um not well suited um she’d been raised in a home that uh that there NE there never was a man so she had no idea what we’re like you know which is really you know awful and um and then um physically we weren’t able to be really intimate much after she stopped drinking and at first we didn’t know about this this was back in the mid 80s and uh and the truth was is that she’d been sexualized as a child and she didn’t have any memory of that and then when she got sober when we’d start to become in intimate her body would and and neither of us understood what was going on and uh and then when she became pregnant when we decided to have a child um all of that came up and that t tends to be a pattern um about 75% of our sisters and Alcoholics Anonymous have been sexualized younger against their well they were young people and uh you know if we’re going to be make sure that alcoholics is anonymous is a safe place we have to make sure that we’re safe and we know what we’re doing when we’re out dating our sisters and to know what’s up and uh so just just an idea that and it’s amazing now as time goes on about how many of our of our brothers have had the same types of experiences and um so that’s one of of the reasons why we need to to also really watch the way that we talk about um uh people that have other shall we say lifestyles in our meetings and uh you know one of the tragedies about my stag meeting because we’re a good bunch of men is that we’ve only we only have maybe one to two uh gay guys in our meeting and uh and we never see to get many more than that and it’s a shame that uh that our meeting is not a larger expression of God just an opinion but uh so anyway at at 13 years sober my marriage ended and uh at Jackie and I we both had sponsors my my sponsor Greg said at the time he said you’re leaving your marriage so you can go to get in a relationship I’d been by Jackie i’ stayed with her while she went through all the sexual recovery work and all that stuff but it had reached the point where I just couldn’t couldn’t hack it anymore and what I was able to do is I was able to sit down at the table and say to her I can’t live like this anymore and um so uh soberman the guy who’d founded the coup’s retreat the guy who’d been talking about the application of spiritual principles being able to um uh trans anything transcend anything it hit a wall and uh and so one of the things that I did was I got I went back into the steps with a group of guys um I was coming up uh on 14 years sober and I wanted to do something special to get ready for 15 and so I got together a group of guys and we went through the book together that all guys that I’d sponsored over the years that were still sober and if you haven’t done that if you haven’t gone through the book with a group of guys it’s really fun to do and there’s a lot of formats out there are they correct well you know it’s just a way of looking at things one way or another uh you know I uh you know I uh enjoy using the uh Dr Paul’s thing that he got from the guys down in Texas The Unofficial guy to the steps I’ve used herb kagan’s uh uh book I’ve used I I you know I I’ve Got Friends that give me these things and I just try it you know I mean why not and uh but uh this unofficial guy to the steps has a really good inventory process in it and so I I I use that and um uh when uh not when I take a guy through in the beginning but you know in a group and one of the things that was really fun to watch was this group of I think there were 14 of us when we started 11 of us actually did the work a year and a half after we finished nobody’s relationship was the same nobody’s business was the same they were still in the same relationships or their businesses but none of our Lives resembled what they were before and it was really fun to watch that power in that many people instead of just oneon-one sometimes you get to the point that you just go you know I mean I’m so used to seeing another man transform and getting that Insight but to see it across the board like that was really really wonderful uh the other two guys that didn’t do it they’re still sober imagine that you know they just didn’t do things correctly with the group and another man was able to die sober uh die consciously and uh so I ended up uh uh with uh this fabulous creature Adell and we’d been running around for a little while and she started to get these migraines and I couldn’t understand why what was happening and neither could she and then one day she pulled up to the coffee bar that I owned I’m I’m one of these people that when I was uh uh 10 years sober I uh went back and reviewed my life wanted to follow my Bliss and and looked about you know when was I happiest in my life so that I could then you know follow that as a career path and when I did that inventory for me I was happiest when I was selling stimulants to college students so this was 1989 1990 and I uh the coffee thing was just starting to percolate up in Seattle and so I went and I bought a I bought a a coffee bar and I put it on a college campus and I went back at my business card for years said Jay stinet purveyor of fine stimulants and uh but anyway she rolled up to the coffee bar and she just fell out of the car and uh we got her to the hospital and um and they couldn’t figure out what was wrong with her and all they were doing was medicating her every six hours when the narcotics would wear off they’d hit her again because the minute she’ they’d start to wear off it was like Tada was working on her she just she just got in more and more Progressive pain now I’ve I’m I’ve just opened this coffee bar and uh and I’m uh I’m trying to be a good dad to my daughter when I got her and I’m sponsoring a bunch of people and I’m stretched but see I’m the kind of guy that I don’t get to make a decision whether or not I go to the meeting if it’s Monday night I’m at the Stag and if it’s Thursday night I’m at the 11 Step group and if it’s Tuesday night guys are coming to my house and if it’s Wednesday night I’m over here unless there’s something that you know that gets in the way of that and uh and so Adele’s in this hospital and I’m going up to the hospital and I’m stretched and I don’t know what to do and uh and it’s Thursday night and I really should be taking care of myself doing something for me but it’s Thursday so I go to my meeting and I’m there and there’s a woman who’s taking a cake and she doesn’t know why she’s there either she didn’t feel like going to the meeting but she’s going to come and take her cake and so she asked how Adele is and I tell her and she says that doesn’t sound right she says tell you what let me uh let me make a call I got a friend who works up at the UCLA Med Center maybe we can get her in there and we were able to do that and I got up there and I got her out of the hospital that she’s in and I get her in the car and I get to drive her up to the hospital and when we get up there they went she didn’t come in a uh ambulance this is obviously an insurance dump we’re not going to admit her and the meds are wearing off and we’re in the admitting area and there’s a lot of people and I don’t know what to do so I go around the corner and I say hey big guy I need some help now and then I did the next indicated thing I called uh I called this woman up that had recommended I come down she made a couple phone calls and the chief neurologist actually came down off the floor into the admitting area and fortunately I had the I had the uh the pictures with me the brain scan and he looked at it and he said this woman is not suffering from migraine she’s had Strokes admit her immediately and they admitted her and uh and uh a couple days later they did this exotic brain surgery where they went up their chotic ottery and collapsed uh the the vein that was uh that was blocked and was causing all the pain with glue and uh and then they couldn’t figure out why it is that a woman that was 35 years old was having strokes and they started looking around at her and uh and they found that she had a tumor in her heart and so the day before Thanksgiving they cracked her open and they took it out put her back together and uh you know I like to say that aside from the marriage that she’s locked into that she’s recovered fairly well but um but you know if I hadn’t been at the meeting how would we ever have gotten to the point where we’d get to where somebody could help her so one of the things that I need to do is I need to pay attention to what’s going on in my life that’s what living prayerfully is you know I need to pay attention what’s going on in my life um it’s like when Jacqueline and I we were trying to uh Jacqueline decided when she got sober that one of the things she wanted to do was she wanted to have a child well great sounds like a wonderful you know opportunity for me so I’m all for it and uh and we weren’t getting pregnant and uh and then I got a phone call and and uh and one of my spons he says get up here would you and I go running up to the hospital and he just had uh he just had a child board uh Timmy’s bis’s son Danny was born and uh I got to walk into the room maybe 20 minutes after the baby was born and I’d never been in that before in that environment you know and it it is the most wondrous place the holiest place there is to be and I was overwhelmed by that experience you know I stayed for just a few minutes because it was so overwhelming and I when I walked out into the parking lot that evening I looked up at this guy and I say hey big guy uh I’d really like to have that experience and that was the night that my daughter was conceived pay attention pay attention you know and this is what we do when we start to take away all this outside stuff see I’m bodily and mentally different from 90% of the people out there and I can’t live in the material world I mean I can pretend to but I can’t stand it at some point it’s like ashes in my mouth I need something of depth and weight and where do I find that depth and weight I find it in alcohol Anonymous the place that my I was awakened you know I drank away my soul and then my sponsor worked the steps with me and it returned so I’m a guy that you’ll see walking down the street just about any day um you know I talk to you about being a geek I can’t take care of myself I’m living in a if I’m lucky I walk around looking for cigarette butts and change trying to get enough to get through a day nobody’s wants to be around me and now because of you what happens is is I’m the kind of guy that I get called when children are born and I get invited into situations that no man ever wants to go into an example is is I was at home and uh this is probably I think Jessica was maybe uh 2 three years old oh yeah I just I just started the the coffee bar down at Long Beach City College and I get a call from my uh a friend uh a guy that he knew in AA his son had come down with leukemia 8-year-old kid he was five the first time he got it and the uh the family did All the Right Stuff the kid went into remission and now it was back and uh they were down at Miller’s children’s hospital and uh bill called me up and he said I don’t know what to do I’m frightened I’m an AA guy I’m a member of the Hermosa Beach men Stag and I have been taught that what I do is I show up I can’t make things right or wrong but I can help make them sober so I come into this place I come into this beautiful hospital and I walk into this room and here’s this child and his family was worked for this really wonderful company that was self-insured and they had all the money in the world in their insurance program and so they’re basically keeping this kid alive as a test case and I I I talked to the kid that first night uh when there was a moment and I said look kid I don’t know you and I know you’re really really sick but I’m an AA guy and your dad needs help stay sober so when I come here I don’t you don’t have to be worried about me you don’t have to be nice to me you don’t have to engage with me like you do with a lot of other people I’m just here to support your dad and uh and so I you know imagine this I am going by this hospital every day when I go to work and this guy is being this sober dad and he’s showing up every other day and his ex-wife showing up the other day and they’re spending the time with this kid and I’m there every day and uh I have always had uh before you know probably my last two or three years of alcoholism I’d always had a pretty cool relationship with God as I understand good God and uh and I got sober and I get I get you know just wonderfully filled and as I kept going to this place what happened is is that my understanding of God just started to get pulverized and uh it couldn’t accept what was going on I mean I’d heard about the suffering of Jesus as far as I read it the guy did whatever he wanted and he had a bad weekend at the end you know every place he went there was a party do you notice that you know I mean he really did he mean they were always having a good time um but uh and my mind can’t can’t wrap itself around what’s going on with this kid and my understanding and my connection with my higher power left and it was devastating and I couldn’t even describe it to anybody I couldn’t talk about it it just was gone and I kept showing up and doing all the stuff that I was normally doing but it was it’s still when I talk about it my chest still gets tight and um I didn’t run away the reason I didn’t run away is cuz I was trained in AA to keep showing up a lot of the things that I do have nothing to do with me being wonderful it’s just that I’m showing up and one night I walked out of the hospital it was a it was probably one of the worst nights that i’ I’d been there you know and we didn’t spend a lot of time in the in the room what I’d do is I’d come in and I’d get the dad and I’d take him out and he’d yell and scream and cry and I’d get him to the point where he could go back in and be there for his son and and I’m leaving the hospital and they had night blooming Jasmine all around this hospital and when I walked out I smelled it and it washed through me and all the way out my toes and it came back but since that time I have never tried to describe God to anybody again again except that I can tell you how it smells for me when we’re working with others one of the things that is a challenge is that many people have no spiritual training I feel a lot of the times that bad spiritual training is better than none cuz at least you got something that that you could work with but a lot of people they don’t have any spiritual connection they don’t have any uh thing with prayer and then we start you know they come into this obviously it’s a Christian cult you know with our serenity prayer and our our saying the Lord’s Prayer and uh and then we get around to uh the third step prayer and uh you know and then they Mumble something that somebody else has written and of course the prayer is God I offer myself to thee to build with me and do with me as thou Wilt relieve me of the bondage of self that I may better do thy will take away my difficulties that Victor over victory over them may bear witness to those that I would help of thy power thy love and thy way of life may I do thy will always then just after this it says uh we found it very desirable to take this spiritual step with an understanding person such as our wife best friend or spiritual adviser that’s the goal to shoot for man the alcoholic Trifecta by the way my wife is all three but it is better to meet God Alone than with one who might misunderstand and then there’s this line which I love the wording of course was quite optional so long as we expressed the idea voicing it without reservation this was only a beginning though if honestly and humbly made in effect sometimes a very great one was felt at once so what I’d like to invite you to do uh we’re going to go have lunch and then we’ll be back here um uh at uh I forget what time one 15 what I’d like to ask you to do is get by yourself for a couple of minutes and write your own third step prayer because one of the things that’s been really really helpful to me in working with others is having them write their own prayer because with many of them it’s the first time that they’ve ever prayed from them their own selves so write your own third step prayer and then sometime over over the next 24 hours cut a guy out of the pack here and go and say the prayer to him have somebody that’s here witness your prayer okay and uh yes sir you can do it however you want yeah just a second all right um um I’m uh I’m uh excuse me um but uh I’m trying to get you to think outside of the box I know that everybody in this room has done the third step correctly and they know how to do it correctly okay but what I’d like to do is just suggest that what you do is try this experiment and see how it works and if you want to do it on your knees that’s wonderful it’s a wonderful thing to do um Dr Bob used to have guys get down on their knees and pray but many times when he did the third step with a guy is they’d be sitting in chairs across from each other and he had these big long legs and these bony knees and he’d lock his legs around theirs and he’d hold his their hands and he’d look them in the eye when they did it so there’s a few different postures that are available who us this is referred to as the Dr Bob leg lock so anyway gentlemen uh thank you very much and I’ll see you back at 1115 thank you for listening to sober Sunrise if you enjoyed today’s episode please give it a thumbs up as it will help share the message until next time have a great day