AA Speakers – Joe & Charlie – “Steps 5, 6, 7, & 8”
Joe & Charlie break down Steps 5 through 8 of AA’s Big Book: confession, willingness, asking God to remove defects, and making amends. Working the steps as written.
Joe & Charlie, two foundational AA speaker voices, walk through Steps 5, 6, 7, and 8 from the Big Book with surgical precision. They explain why a solitary inventory isn’t enough—why you need another human being to help you see what shame and rationalization have hidden from you for years—and how admitting your exact nature of defects to God, yourself, and another person is the turning point where the real work of change begins.
Joe & Charlie explain that Step 5 requires taking your written inventory to another person because a solitary self-appraisal is insufficient; you’ve rationalized your defects for years and need objective help. Steps 6 and 7 are about becoming willing to let God remove character defects and then humbly asking Him to take them away—but real change requires you to practice the opposite behavior while God does the internal work. Steps 8 and 9 involve making a list of people harmed, becoming willing to make amends, and then directly repairing the damage done in the past—restitution that removes the guilt, fear, and remorse that blocks recovery.
Episode Summary
This is essential AA Big Book study material. Joe & Charlie, two of the most respected AA speaker voices, dissect the machinery of Steps 5 through 8 with the clarity of people who’ve lived it.
Step 5 gets the most attention here, and for good reason. The book says a solitary self-appraisal is insufficient, but most people in the rooms skip past this line. Joe and Charlie don’t. They explain why: you’ve spent years—maybe decades—rationalizing your behavior, justifying your resentments, explaining away your selfishness. You’ve become an expert at lying to yourself. You can see defects in everyone in the room easily enough, but your own? Layers of denial and self-protection make that nearly impossible. That’s why you need another human being who’s actually worked the steps, who understands the program, to sit across from you and ask questions, to point out inconsistencies, to help you see what you genuinely cannot see alone.
The speaker emphasizes: get a sponsor who actually knows the program. Not just someone with time, but someone who has worked Steps 4 and 5 themselves according to the Big Book. Prepare your written inventory. Make the time for it—don’t rush. When you sit down to do it, pray first (like the sponsor does in the example). Go through it line by line. Let them ask you hard questions. This is not confession in the religious sense; it’s the beginning of being honest about who you’ve actually become.
Then comes the payoff: the promises start to show up. The book says your fears fall away, you feel the nearness of your creator, your mind—which used to race uncontrollably—begins to quiet. The obsession to drink lifts.
Steps 6 and 7 are short paragraphs in the Big Book, but Joe & Charlie point out they’re two of the biggest steps in the program. Step 6 is about becoming willing to have God remove the character defects you’ve identified. Step 7 is asking Him to do it. But here’s what people miss: God does for you what you cannot do for yourself, but He will not do for you what you can do for yourself. You have to practice the opposite. If you’re selfish, you have to practice unselfishness. If you’re dishonest, you have to practice honesty—in every situation, even when it costs you, even when it feels foreign. Over time, the old habit dies and a new one takes its place. This isn’t overnight. It’s a lifetime of practice with God’s help.
The story about the grocery store change illustrates this perfectly: Joe got too much change, walked out feeling terrible, went back in to return it, and walked out feeling good. The next time it happens, you won’t even make it to the door with the money. That’s how character change works in AA—through repeated right action, not willpower alone.
Steps 8 and 9 are about restitution and amends. Step 8 is making the list of people harmed and becoming willing to repair that damage. Step 9 is actually doing it. The principle here is that the purpose of amends is not to make people like you—though that sometimes happens. The purpose is to free yourself from the guilt, fear, and remorse that could send you back to drinking. Direct amends (face-to-face, eyeball to eyeball) work best because when you’ve said what you need to say, you’re done. You’ve done your part. It doesn’t matter if they forgive you or throw you out—you don’t carry it anymore.
Financial amends get their own extended treatment. You don’t dodge creditors. You go to them, tell them what you owe, and arrange a payment plan. It might take years—Dan, a man in their fellowship, took 29 years to pay back everything he’d stolen—but as time passes anyway, you might as well use it for something worthwhile. You’re not trying to become rich; you’re trying to become free.
The speakers emphasize getting sponsor guidance before making amends, especially when other people might be hurt. You can cause real damage if you charge ahead with good intentions but poor strategy. Sometimes you can’t make direct amends because the person is dead, or making amends would harm them or others. In those cases, you stay willing and move forward.
What emerges from this talk is a picture of recovery that’s not about feeling better in the moment—it’s about systematic removal of the wreckage of the past and the character defects that created it. The promises that follow Step 9 aren’t hype. They’re described as things people in AA are actually experiencing. A new freedom, a new happiness, peace, the ability to handle situations that used to baffle you, the knowledge that God is doing for you what you couldn’t do for yourself.
Joe & Charlie close with reflection on why this works. The promises that come after the first nine steps are the same promises alcohol used to deliver—freedom, happiness, peace, confidence—but alcohol eventually turned on them and destroyed their lives. The steps deliver those same gifts and never turn against you. That’s why people stay sober. They’ve found what they were searching for when they were drinking, but through a program that actually works and doesn’t destroy them in the process.
Notable Quotes
A solitary self-appraisal is insufficient. I need another human being to be able to look at me objectively and help me see things that I couldn’t see.
God will do for me what I can’t do for myself. God will not do for me what I can do for myself. I simply do not have the power to remove a character defect—only God has that power.
When you become unselfish, people start kind of liking you a little better. When you practice honesty, you feel better about yourself. That’s how you build self-esteem—by doing the right thing.
The purpose of making amends is not to get you to like me—I hope you will—but the purpose is to get rid of my fear, my guilt, and my remorse.
I found out that when you’ve made your amends face to face and you’ve said what you need to say, you’re through with it. You’ll never have to worry about it again.
The first nine steps are doing just exactly for me what alcohol used to do for me when alcohol was my friend. That’s why I don’t drink today.
Steps 6 & 7 – Character Defects
Steps 8 & 9 – Making Amends
Big Book Study
Sponsorship
Topics Covered in This Transcript
- Step 5 – Admission
- Steps 6 & 7 – Character Defects
- Steps 8 & 9 – Making Amends
- Big Book Study
- Sponsorship
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Full AA Speaker Transcript
This transcript was auto-generated and may contain minor errors. For the best experience, listen to the audio above.
welcome to sober Sunrise a podcast bringing you AA speaker meetings with stories of experience strength and Hope from around the world we bring you several new speakers weekly so be sure to subscribe whether you join us in the morning or at night there’s nothing better than a sober Sunrise we hope that you enjoy today’s speaker okay let’s go to page 72 72 into action uh we want to run very briefly now through steps 5 6 and 7even and then we’ll take our break okay so we go to page 72 into action now it’s not into thinking it’s into action say having made our personal inventory well what should we do about it well we’ve been trying to get a new attitude remember Dr Yung said ideas emotions and attitudes were the guiding force of lives of the people are suddenly cast to one side we’re trying to get a new attitude and a new relationship with our creator and our book said that back on page 45 that the main object of this book was to enable me to find a power greater than myself which would solve my problem and to discover the obstacles in my path and what are some of the obstacles the resentment and the fear and the harm done to other people we’ve we’ve admitted certain defects and what are these defects selfish dishonest self-seeking frightening inconsiderate attitudes we’ve ascertained in a rough way what the trouble is we put the finger on our weak items in our personal inventory now these are about to be cast out this requires action on our part which when completed will mean that we committ it to God to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our defects this brings us to the fifth step in the program recovery mentioned in the preceding chapter now we know that step five says we admitted to God to ourselves and another human being the exact nature of our wrongs but if you’ll notice here in the narrative he said the exact nature of our defects and people used to ask Bill about this and we’ve known two ladies that worked with Bill with and for him for years they both tell us the same thing people would say Bill why did you use the word wrongs in step five yet in the narrative here in the book you used the word defects and by the way Bill what’s the difference anyhow between a wrong in five a defect in six and a shortcoming in seven and they both said that bill would just kind of RAR back and smile and he would say when I took English and writing courses in college they taught me not to use the same words over and over shows how dumb you are you know you know you know he said there he said there really are no differences in these things he said in step four we find those things that block us off from God in step five we’re going to talk about them to another human being in Step six we’re going to become willing to turn them loose in Step seven we’re going to ask God to take them away and he said you can call them anything you want to a wrong a fault a mistake a defect a personality flaw or whatever and we’re going to notice on the next couple of pages that’s exactly what he does with them I followed it up in the 12 and 12 13 years later not only does he does it does he do it there but he does it twice as bad as he did in the big book using these words interchangeably back and forth all of them meaning identically the same thing he said this is perhaps difficult especially dis discussing our defects there’s that word again he did it again right there with another person we think we’ve done well enough admitting these things to ourselves so there’s doubt about that in actual practice we usually find that a solitary self appraisal insufficient many of us thought it necessary to go much further we would be more reconciled in discussing ourselves with another person when we see good reasons why we should do so the best reason first if we skip this vital step we may not over come drinking you know uh you take these forms now they’re very very Vital Information that we’ve done here a book says that the solitary self-appraisal is insufficient I did the very best I could do filling out these forms with a limited knowledge that I had in experience but I did the best I could do now I take these to another human being and discuss them from left to right all the way across someone else who’s gone on before me who’s done the inventory according to the big book and now their person is going to help me to glean more information out of each of these situations that’s going to help me I need that information because a solitary self appraisal is insufficient give you an example looking around this room today and this weekend I’ve noticed two or three Character defects there a couple of them sitting right over there one sitting right here on the front row for sure right there several of them as a matter of fact it’s real easy for me to look at you and see your defects of character there’s nothing between you and me except air but it’s very very difficult for me to look at me and see the truth and see my defects of character because there’s years in a lifetime of rationalization and justification for these attitudes and I need another human being to be able to look at me objectively and to help me see things that I couldn’t see cuz I’m starting out on a brand new lifetime engagement here and I need all the information and help that I can get to have a very successful life and I did the very best I could do in the inventory process but a solitary self-appraisal is insufficient I need God and another human being to help me see things that I couldn’t see now to be sure we have no contradictions here over on page 73 on that first paragraph where it says more than most people just the sentence before that said but they had not learned enough of humility fearlessness and honesty in the sense we find it necessary until they told someone else all their life story now there’s the statement that got us confused about step four and we all began to write our life story thinking that would be step four but as we can see 95% of our life story really doesn’t have anything to do with our alcoholism fact I was born in 1929 that really don’t have anything to do with it but I tell you what I have done if I’ve taken my inventory the way the book says I’ve shared all my life story in those areas that really count resentments didn’t come in my head just today they’ve been popping in my head as far back as I can remember I’ve shared all my life story resentment wise fears didn’t come just today they’ve been coming in my head as far as I can remember I’ve shared all my life story fears wise the harms I’ve done to other people I didn’t hurt them just yesterday I’ve been hurting people as far back as I can remember my mother said to me one time she said Charlie you were the meanest kid I ever saw she said I had a little problem loving you myself you know when Mama don’t love you you’re pretty bad off yeah and as I look at these things today my whole life is centered anyhow around those three things those resentments and those fears and those harms I’ve done to others so I don’t have any quarrel with that statement at all anymore if we’ve done our inventory the way the book says we shared our life story now here’s why we really need to share this with another human being more than most people the alcoholic leads a double life he’s very much the actor to the outer world he presents his stage character this is the one he likes his fellows to see he wants to enjoy a certain reputation but knows in his heart he doesn’t deserve it a practicing alcoholic is trying to live two lives you know we’ve got a conscience whenever we’re sober we try to live like people are supposed to live but when we’re drinking since alcohol lowers the inhibitions God we do things that we would never think about doing sober we’re living two lifetimes when we’re practicing alcoholic the inconsistencies made worse by the things he does on his spres coming to his senses he’s revolted at certain episodes he vaguely remembers these memories are a nightmare he trembles to think someone might have observed him as fast as he can he pushes his memories far inside himself he hopes they will never see the light of day he is under constant fear and tension and that makes for more drinking you know if th face it we alcoholics have become the world’s greatest con artist you have to be you couldn’t live as a practicing alcoholic if you didn’t learn how to lie cheat con manipulate steal whatever is necessary and I think the one we have to con the most is ourselves I don’t think we could live with ourselves if we had to really see what’s going on when we’re drinking but you see we got a little thing called resentments and we use those resentments to transfer blame to others and that way we could live with oursel now if you’ve been doing that for 5 10 15 20 25 30 40 years you come to AA and you take step four you be just as honest as you can with yourself but let’s face it we can’t be honest with ourselves I now need to take my inventory take it to another human being one who’s walked this walk before me who understands four 5 6 7 8 and N according to the big book and have them help me see those things I can’t see about me now they’re going to change anything in column one not going to change anything in column two they’ll probably change some things in column 3 you know one place I said this was caused by the sex Instinct and he said no it isn’t said you’re just trying to build your self-esteem that’s all you’re trying to do in the fifth column one place I said this this was caused by fear and he said this is plain damn dishonesty that’s all this is he helped me see things I couldn’t see we’re getting ready to start a lifetime changing process we need to be sure that we’re trying to change the right things so we can have peace of mind in the future and we just can’t see it by ourselves now I know confession is good for the soul and I know if you belong to a denomination that requires it you ought to go do that but I still think you ought to take your inventory to somebody in AA preferably a good sponsor if you got one that knows the program the main thing is do they really know the program if they do they can help us if they don’t then all we’re going to get out of its confession we need more than that page 74 tells people tell you how to to pick somebody that is not valid today like it was in 1939 in 39 the first person out here in California that got this big book didn’t have any other AA members or any sponsor and it was difficult for them to find somebody to do step five with that’s what page 74 deals with but today there’s plenty of good people out here in California that understands this program that have worked this program that have walked this step before that’s who we need to select to take step five with hopefully it’ll be our sponsor page 75 tells us how to do it so when we decide who is to hear our story we waste no time there’s that time Factor again we have a written inventory I’m prepared for a long talk we explained to our partner what we’re about to do and why we have to do it he should realize that we’re engaged upon a life and death errand most people approached in this way would be glad to help they would be honored by our confidence I’ll never forget when I call my sponsor Franklin I said Franklin can I come over this weekend and do my inventory do my fifth step he said sure I’d love to have you come over so I went over there to East uh to uh Oli Branch Mississippi and I sat down there with Franklin that evening and I said well I’ve got it all prepared here and you’ve helped me a lot and I appreciate it he said yeah I know you do and I’m ready to get started he said but first of all that’s you and I do the third step prayer together that’s the kind of sponsor I had and we ask God to be with us during this process and we did that and we sat about looking into this inventory process and Frankin helped me see things that I couldn’t see I shared these things with him from left to ride all the way across and he asked me questions and helped me see things that I couldn’t see shared with me some of the things that happened with him and how he could see things and it helped me a whole lot it helped me a lot and then after that weekend was over where the book said we pocket our pride and go to it Illuminating every Twist of character every dark crane of the past once taken the step Withholding Nothing we are delighted now we see the results some more promises we can look the world in the eye we can be alone at perfect peace and ease our fears fall from us we begin to feel The Nearness of our creator we may have had certain spiritual beliefs but now we begin to have a spiritual experience we believed in step two now we begin to have a spiritual experience the feeling that the drink problem has disappeared will often come strongly we feel that we’re on the broad Highway walking hand in hand with the spirit of the universe you know I remember back when I was drinking how my mind used to race uncontrollably every night and that’s the main reason I drank was to stop it and after I did this fifth step and I was on my way home that afternoon I was I I used to lay awake I think if I could just get it all even one time just get it back to zero back to even in all those situations just one time I’d be okay and by this time I could see that I could do that I was looking forward to the next steps because I wanted to get things squared away one time and I thank God all the way home for this process up to this point now if you’ve done four and five according to the big book you’ve done a lot of work you probably re tired and need a little rest the book’s going to give us a little rest stop returning home we find a place where we can be quiet for an hour he didn’t say 72 days you see they mean for us to get on with this thing between 3 and four at once now we get an hour’s rest here but that’s all we thank God from the bottom of our heart that we know him better we don’t know him yet but we know him better taking this book down from our Shelf we turn to the page which contains the 12 Steps carefully reading the first five proposals now he could have said the first five steps again but he don’t want to do it twice in a row carefully reading the first five proposals we ask if we’ve omitted anything for we’re building an arch through which we shall walk a free men at last is our work solid so far are the stones properly in place have we skimped on the cement put in the foundation have we tried to make mortar without sand and once again we’re referring to the one wonderfully effective spiritual structure the personality change we’re building step one willingness was the foundation step two believing was the Cornerstone step three he told us it’s an arch we’ll pass through to freedom and three was the Keystone now we put two more stones in place step six we have emphasized willingness as being indispensable are we now ready to let God remove from us all the things which we’ve admitted or objectionable can he now take them all everyone if we still cling to something we will not let go we ask God to help us be willing and that’s all the step six and if you’ll notice he didn’t say a thing about defects of character did he he did say those things that we have admitted or objectionable now surely surely in step four and five when we looked out into that fifth column and we saw that old selfish dishonest self-seeking frightened inconsiderate character that we had become when we saw that those are what caus us to do the things that hurt people they in turn retaliate we in turn resent we’re afraid we’re filled with guilt and remorse causes us to drink then surely those things in the fifth column have now become objectionable to us are we ready to turn them loose if we are we’re through with step six the book recognizes though that self cannot always overcome self cuz it says if we’re not ready we ask God to help us be willing to turn these things loose now you would think when we see what they do to us we’d be more than willing but sometimes we’re not you know we human beings are funny people uh sometimes we would rather sit in today’s pain and suffering because we’ve kind of learned how to take care of that sometimes we would rather set in today’s pain and suffering than take a chance on changing in the future cuz we don’t know what change will bring you see if I have to get rid of my selfishness and become unselfish then how am I going to get what I want in the future if I’m going to have to get rid of my dishonesty and start operating honestly how in the hell am I going to make a living I don’t know nothing about honesty when I get here if I’m going to have to start getting rid of myself seeking fright and character and and start operating on Courage that scares the hell out of me I don’t know nothing about that if I’m going to have to start considering other people in their needs and their wants then then who’s going to take care of me sometimes we would rather sit in today’s pain then take a chance on changing in the future and the book recognized that and said if you’re not willing you ask God to help you be willing and with God’s help we become willing we’re through with six when ready we say something like like this my Creator I’m now willing you should have all of me good and bad I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character whoop whoop we’re in Step seven now and it said shortcomings but here he calls see what he’s done to us he confused the hell out of us didn’t he you bet you I pray you now remove from every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows grant me strength as I go out from here to do your bidding amen we then completed step seven are you ready to have God remove them if you are you’re through with sex have you humbly asked him to take them away if you have you’ve done step seven but I hope you don’t make the mistake I did I assume that now that I’m ready and God being all powerful all I’ve got to do is turn to God and say okay God here I am warts and all zap me and give me the 29.95 special and I’ll never have to worry about this stuff again I found out it won’t work that way God will do for me what I can’t do for myself I simply do not have the power to remove a character defect only God has that power God will not do for me what I can do for myself and what I can do for myself is find out the opposite of that character defect and then with God’s help and all the willpower I can muster in every situation it comes up try to practice the opposite CU you see God can’t take away my selfishness and leave another hole in my head it’s going to have to be replaced with the opposite which is unselfishness and when I first got here my mind was a set of mental habits ingrained in 30 8 39 40 Years of Living the habitual thing for me to which to react selfishly and the only way you break a habit is to work against yourself and if I ask God to take away selfishness and I start trying to practice unselfishness slowly the old habit dies and a new habit takes its place and over a period of years I have become an unselfish human being I am not what I was when I first got here if I want God to take away dishonesty then I must do my part which is to practice honesty in every situation that comes up and God that’s hard for me to do that is so alien to my nature and I can’t practice honesty without God’s help but with God’s power all the willpower I can muster I can force myself to be honest and slowly the old idea dies and a new one takes its place the habitual thing for me today is to react to any situation with honesty if I want God to take away fear then I’ve got to kick myself in the butt and practice courage if I want him to take away in consideration then I must start considering other people and their needs and their wants and slowly the old idea dies and a new idea takes its place the book says we were Reborn I am not what I used to be now I’m not completely unselfish never will be I’m Not always completely honest sometimes I’m afraid and at other times I’m inconsiderate but the majority of the time I’m an unselfish honest human being with courage considering other people first you know I think you and I are the luckiest people in the world we have the opportunity Unity through these two little steps right here to live two lifetimes in one lifetime most people out there are sick most of them are going to the Grave sick not even knowing they’re sick we not only know we’re sick we know what’s wrong with us we found it in steps four and five and in six and seven we can do something about it and we can change it and we become entirely different human beings most people don’t get that opportunity now be careful for God’s sake be careful cuz if you really accept this as the correct thing and the right thing then that means from this day on you are responsible for what you are I can’t blame it on Barbara any longer can’t blame it on mother and dad I can’t blame it on God and I can’t blame it on society If I Stay selfish dishonest self-seeking frightened and inconsiderate it’s got to be because that’s the way I want to be I no longer have the luxury of blaming it on others cuz I don’t have to be that way and you know what I found out I found out that when you become unselfish people start kind of liking you a little better better than they did before I found out when you start becoming honest well hell you feel better about yourself that’s the way you build self-esteem is to do the right thing for a change I found out when I practice with courage courage and and and and operate on Courage instead of fear I do things that makes me feel better and I quit doing things that used to make me feel so bad oh I found out that there’s real pleasure in considering other people first and giving to others before you take for yourself I didn’t know that how in the hell could I know that I’d never been that way before this thing absolutely amazes me in in what happens to us and Simplicity of this thing if we’ll just do what the book says Joe you know there’s always a paradox in AA to give you an idea what a paradox is how many of you have ever called your sponsor so you could listen we always call them so we can talk right that’s the Paradox and the Paradox here in this in these two steps is that they use the doctor’s opinion and the first four chapters to do step one and two three and A2 Pages for step three eight pages for step four four pages for step five and a whole chapter devoted with working with others the the Paradox is that two of the biggest steps in all of Alcoholics annonymous is on two little paragraphs six and seven and these are the tools of change these are the tools of acceptance a lot of people talk about just run around accepting things I accept this I accept that well I can’t do that acceptance comes after some actions six and seven the acceptance comes after after the actions of six and seven you know there’s a story in another book about this guy named Judas Judas could not accept what he had done and what did he do killed himself that’s the that’s the importance of acceptance and you can’t accept anything unless you take some actions and he didn’t do steps six and seven didn’t have them and and the other story is that there’s a story in this other book about this guy his name was Saul Saul was riding his ass on the way to Damascus big bolt of lightning come down knocked him off his ass on his ass that’s the way I read it he gets up and he’s dusting himself off and this big voice come out of the sky and said Saul can we talk hell yeah we can talk what you want to talk about had to get his attention didn’t he maybe alcoholism had to get our attention and he said yeah Saul you’ve been a very selfish individual and you’ve harmed a lot of people and you’re very resentful and angry and you’ve harmed a lot of people by those attitudes and he said I want you to quit doing that and he said well how do you quit doing that he said we do these things and if you’ll do that then you’ll make a change and when you change then we’ll call you Paul well he did those things and became Paul now we know that Paul was one of the greatest writers the world’s ever known and in in the Corinthians town of Corinthians they asked Paul one day he said Paul said what is the secret to living and he said the secret to living is daily dying the old Saul had to die so the new Paul came alive you see six and seven and time I got to six and seven I could see what I had become as a result of the previous steps and I didn’t like what I had become and the little doubt creeped in my mind can God really change me from what I have become to what he intends for me to be and then I had to reaffirm and rethink about this idea on page 53 it said God either is or isn’t he either can can’t and what was my choice going to be and I chose to believe that he could the tools have change to change from what I had become to that which God intended for me six and seven two of the biggest steps in all of alcohol synonymous now just before the break I want Joe to tell you one little story about buying some salad to show you practicing this thing I was hoping he wouldn’t do that to me this morning a few years ago I went into the into the grocery store to buy some salad and and stuff to fix for a salad that night was having steak and I went in there and bought this stuff and came back up to the register and I was going to pay up and I gave this lady $10 and she took the $10 and stood right there and counted me out change for a 20 and I watched her do it and I picked up that money and I put it in my pocket and I got out of my car and I sat there and I said well you big dummy you sold out for 10 bucks I thought it was worth more than that you know I’m I’m glad it wasn’t less than that and I so I took the money back in there and I told the lady I said you know I’m a member of a fellowship that requires me to be honest and you gave me too much money and I want to give you this $10 back and she said you know I never heard of a fellowship like that I said well I hadn’t either until a few years ago so here’s your 10 bucks back well the whole point of this story when I walked out of that $10 now believe me I don’t need $10 I mean I do not need $10 and I walked out of that store and I felt about that big sneaking out the door you see then I went back in there and gave her that 10 bucks back and I walked out and I’m feeling good again I did the right thing and if you practice that enough times the next time she gives change for 20 you do it right there you don’t even go out the door with it that’s what we’re talking about when we change and only we can do it only we can slay ourselves with God’s help and become different human beings so if you stay dishonest self-seeking frightening inconsideration must be because you want to we’ve uh we’ve completed our first seven steps knowing full well we’re going to be working on six and seven for the rest of our lives really trying to change as the opportunity comes up now we’ve read in the book where we are uh spiritually sick mentally sick sick and physically sick and it says when the spiritual maladies overcome we straighten out mentally and physically and we begin to look at those things and begin to realize that all human beings really are born to live in three dimensions of life you know if God dwells under each of us we’re going to have to live with God whether we like it or nots beside the point the only question is do we live with him in harmony or disharmony I don’t know of anybody that ever got in more disharmony with God than we alcoholics have we also have what we call the mental Dimension we’ve all got a mind sometimes we act like we don’t but we do and we have to live with our mind whether we like it or not beside the point we don’t have any choice and again do we live there in harmony or disharmony I don’t know if any group of people had ever got more fouled up in their heads than we alcoholics have for years I thought the physical Dimension was my body only today I realize the physical Dimension is the world and everything in it period now we alcoholics don’t have any place else to live except here on Earth we don’t have any choice in the matter whether we like it or not it’s beside the point the only question is do we live on earth with our fellow men in harmony or disharmony and I don’t know if any group of people had ever got more fouled up in our relationship with the world and everybody in it and we alcoholics have so we were sick spiritually mentally and physically the book talks about a design for living and it looks to us like these steps are designed in such a manner to put us back together and make us well in all three dimensions of life as God intended for us to be in the first place step one two and three we got right with the spirit because we were powerless we saw the need for the power step three we decided to go after that power and we made a decision that God was going to be the director that he’s the father we’re the children he’s the employer we’re the employee for most of us that’s the first time we’ve had that relationship with God for a long long long time we got the right relation ship in 1 two and three that removed just enough self-will to let us begin to look into our own minds and in step four and five we found out those things that block us off from God that block us off from our fellow man that creates the resentments and the fears and the guilts and Etc and we begin to work on those in steps six and seven we begin to get right into in our minds through four five 6 and 7even now that removes just enough self-will to begin to look at our relationship with the world and everybody in it now through 4 five 6 and 7 we got rid of these resentments up here we got rid of these fears up here to the level God intended for them to be but we really haven’t done anything about the store room back here that’s filled with guilt and remorse associated with the harms we’ve done in the past and if we want to get right in the physical Dimension our relationship with the world and everybody in it it’s long been known that the way you do that is to make restitution for the things done in the past then the guilt and the remorse begins to disappear now I’ve never yet seen a newcomer come into a meeting and read the steps off the wall and say that I can hardly wait till we get to steps 8 and nine that looks like a lot of fun nobody likes to do steps eight and N nobody that I’ve ever met some people might but not that I know the only question is can we afford not to do that it looks like if we don’t do that that guilt and remorse in here just kind of keeps chewing at us and after a while it begins to bother our relationship with the world and everybody in it we start getting sick in our head and after a while that backs up and blocks us off from God and we end up drunk again you know when we read the forward to the second edition it sounded as though Dr Bob never took another drink after Bill visited with him the first time that isn’t true Dr Bob had one more drunk left in him not too long after Bill called on him and they began to try to work with people Bob found it necessary to go to a medical convention and his wife and beged Bill not to let him go said Bill if he goes over there he’ll get drunk he does it every year and Bill said let him go he’s got to learn to live in society where there’s always going to be plenty of alcohol Bob went to the medical convention got drunk came back to akan showed up at his nurse’s home she called an said come and get him he’s drunk and said get him sobered up he’s got surgery in the morning he’s the only doctor on staff right now that can do this particular surgery Dr Bob was a proctologist whatever your procto is I’m glad he wasn’t working on mine the next morning I know that they went over and got him and brought him back to Dr Bob’s house and they cofed him and they walked him and they sobered him to the best of their ability the next morning Bill took him to the hospital to do the surgery in the parking lot at the hospital Dr Bob said bill I can’t do this surgery he said I’m sick and I’m shaking and I’m trembling and I’m going to hurt somebody bad Bill reached in the backseat of the car got out a bottle of beer popped the top on it said drink this and you’ll be okay Dr Bob drank the beer went upstairs did the surgery and sure enough it came out okay now the only problem is he disappeared Bill’s waiting on him down in the parking lot he waits two or 3 4 hours he assumes that the beers triggered the allergy and Bob’s off and running he goes back to Dr Bob’s house bill and Anne wait all afternoon late late late evening Dr Bob shows up and he’s sober Bill said where in the hell of you been he said I’ve been going up and down both sides of the street making my amends to those I’ve harmed in the past that bottle of beer was the last drink Dr Bob took January the 10th 1935 which is aa’s birthday he never would make amends before because he was afraid people would find out he was alcoholic and he would lose what little practice he had left he didn’t know that everybody already knew he was alcoholic the day he SC screwed up the courage mustered up enough courage to make his amends was the day he took his last drink now I would assume if it’s good enough for Bob it’s probably good enough for me too let’s look at 8 and N for just a few minutes we’re not going to go through them in great detail just a few minutes he said now we need more action without which we find that faith without works is dead let’s look at steps 8 and nine you know generally if you go to a step study meeting and they begin to talk about step eight generally the conversation will get over to whether or how they made amends in Step nine but step eight is a definite step and it’s a step that needs to be done he said let’s we have a list of all persons we had harmed and to whom we’re willing to make amends so we made it when we took inventory we would simply take all those names off of column one off of those four sheets and anyone that we’ve harmed we put them on one long sheet haven’t made any amends yet we just made the list and then the book says we subjected ourselves to a drastic self- appraisal well we did that in steps four and five a drastic self appraisal he said now we’re about to go out to these fellows and repair the Damage Done in the past we attempt to sweep away the debris which is accumulated of our effort to live on self-will and run the show ourselves if we haven’t the will to do this we ask until it comes more prayer in Step eight and again it’s real simple we make the list then we become willing to the list and if we’re not willing we ask God to help us to become willing we haven’t made any amends yet that’s step eight and when we do that then we’ve completed step eight nearly every one of these action steps recognizes itself can over come self and we have prayer in most of them and here we got it again in Step eight that if we’re not willing we ask God to help us be willing and I had a lot of difficulty in Step eight and step nine because there’s some people that had harmed me just as bad as I’d ever harmed them and I didn’t knew it was going to be necessary for me to make any amends to them and I didn’t feel like I could and I didn’t want to and I told my sponsor about this he said okay he said what I’d like to see you do is take that list that you have and divided into four list and he said I’d like to see you put on one list right now I’d like to see you put on another list later I’d like to see you put on another list Maybe and I’d like to see you put on another list never now he said those that you love and you want to make amends to them right now put them on that list those that you know you’re going to do it sooner or later but you’re not too Keen about it put them on the later list he said those that you aren’t sure about you may or may not put them on the maybe list and he said put put the second ones on the later and then put the third ones on the maybe list and and he said then those you’re never going to make amends to put them on the ne’s list and then he said I want you to start making your amends to the right nows and he said by the time you’re through with that you’ll probably be ready to do some lers but the time you’re through with the later list you’ll probably be ready to do some may and he reached in his billfold and got out a $20 bill and he said I’m going to bet you $20 by the time you’re through with the May you’ll be ready to start on the ever and the old fool was exactly right you know I was trying to block myself off entirely from step8 and nine by using three or four names and he didn’t let me do that he gave me a process by which I could become willing to make amends to them all eventually and it really did work for me so if you got that problem or you’re working with somebody got that problem try the four list right now later maybe and never and he works okay after we’ve got the list we’re willing over on page 77 we begin to look at step nine now step nine is a definite thre part step the first part tells us the kind of amends to make we made direct amends wherever possible direct amends is probably eyeball to eyeball face to face one one-onone so he tells us the kind of amends to make direct amends then he tells us when to make them wherever possible then he tells us when not to make them except when to do so would injure them or others now for the next three or four pages he handles each one of these things paragraph by paragraph page 77 that paragraph down in the middle of the page it says we don’t use this as an excuse for shying away from the subject of God when it would serve any good purpose we’re willing to announce our convictions with tact and common sense now the direct amand starts right here with the words the question of how to approach the man we hated will arise let’s look at this one I think in the area of the ninth step especially since we’re going to go out and make amends for the harm done I think especially we need to talk to our sponsors in and listen to our sponsors in this area to get some information about how we’re going to go about making these amends cuz we can go out in our Zeal to make amends and cause a whole lot more harm than we ever intended or had ever done prior to that just trying to make amends so check with your sponsor in this area lay out how you’re going to do it and what you proposed to do and see what he says very very important see the question of how to approach the man we hated will arise it may be he’s done us more harm than we’ve done him and though and though we may have acquired a better attitude toward him we’re still not too Keen about admitting our faults nevertheless with a person we dislike we take the bed in our teeth it’s harder to go to an enemy than to a friend but we find it much more beneficial to us we go to him in a helpful and forgiving Spirit confessing our former ill feelings and expressing our regret now under no condition do we criticize such a person or argue simply we tell him that we will never get over drinking until we’ve done our utmost to straighten out the past we’re there to sweep off our side of the street realizing nothing worthwhile can be accomplished until till we do so never trying to tell him what he should do his faults are not discussed and we stick to our own now if our manner is calm Frank and open we will be gratified with the result in nine cases out of 10 the unexpected happens sometimes the man we are calling upon inms his own fault so feuds of years standing melt away in an hour rarely do we make do we fail to make satisfactory progress our former enemies sometimes praise what we’re doing and wish us well occasionally they will offer assistance it should not matter however if someone does throw us out of his office we made our demonstration done our part It’s water over the dam and every time I read that I think about my cousin Gary and I was in the area of making amends at this time and I was in this restaurant one day and I’ve never been in that restaurant before or since and I looked up and Gary was at the door waiting to be seated and I em motioned him over now he came over very reluctantly cuz Gary and I have been fighting and fussing and physically and verbally abusing each other all our life so he came over very reluctantly he wasn’t quite sure what I might do and I asked him to sit down and he did reluctantly and I looked at him and I said Gary I found out I’m an alcoholic and I’m a member of Alcoholics Anonymous and I’m trying to straighten out my life and trying to make amends for the harms that I’ve done people and I’ve harmed you a whole lot over these years and I want to ask you if you’ll forgive me for that well he kind of relaxed like that and he said you know Joe I want to ask you if you’ll forgive give me the things I’ve done to you that whole deal went away just like that and that’s a wonderful thing but the best part about it is that Gary comes to alcoholic synonymous from time to mind even now well he’s making progress he used to be a daily Drinker and now he’s a a what do you call it a perod periodic Drinker yeah so he’s making progress but he comes to the group that I attend and we sit down and he’ll and we’ll visit back and forth a little bit as much as he will allow me to but had that not happened that many years ago Gary would never come to alcol it’s anomymous maybe someday he’ll get sober I hope so eyeball eyeball face to face one onone I think we got to remember now the purpose of making the amends is not to get you to like me I hope you will when I’m through but the purpose is to get rid of my fear my guilt and my remorse if I write you a letter I’m not quite sure how you accepted it I’m still a little concerned about what you’re going to say and do do the next time I run into you I’m not sure I’ve done my utmost if I call you on the telephone I got the same situation but if I go to you wherever you are your office your home or wherever it might be and we sit down eyeball ey all face to face one onone when I’ve made my amends I’m through with it I’ll never have to worry about it again you’ve done the the worst you’re going to do to me right there and I in turn have done my utmost no doubt that’s the best way to do it another kind of a man is in equal restitution or equal amounts you know we tended to hurt a lot of people in in the material area also some of them we stole from them and never did give them their money back some of them we ran up bills that we never did pay we wrote hot checks that we never did pick up we tore up automobiles we never did fix we’ve heard a lot of people in a lot of ways in the material world what are we going to do about that it really wouldn’t do much good for me to come to you and say look you and I both know I stole $1,200 from you when I was drinking and I’m sorry about it would you forgive me you probably going to say I’m sorry about it too where’s my $1,200 equal restitution Bill handles that in the next paragraph most alcoholics owe money now that’s probably the understatement of the year right there we do not Dodge our creditors telling them what we’re trying to do we make no bones about our drinking they usually know it anyway whether we think so or not nor are we afraid of disclosing our alcoholism on a theory it may cause Financial harm approached in this way the most ruthless creditor will sometimes surprise us arranging the best deal we can we let these people know we are sorry our drinking is made us slow to pay we must lose our fear of creditors no matter how far we have to go for we’re liable to drink if we’re afraid to face them I think what he’s saying to me is this that if I owe you money for any reason I need to come to you and say look I know I owe you the $1,200 and you you know it too and I’m trying to get my life straightened out I’m sorry I can’t pay you that amount of money today but what I’d like to do is start paying you $5 a week $10 a week whatever I can live with and I start paying you that5 or $10 a week or 20 or whatever we’ve decided on and as the weeks go by some morning I wake up and I say hey that sucker’s paid off I don’t have to worry about that one anymore the fear and the guilt and remorse is gone I go to the next one I say now you and I both know I owe you a couple thousand I can’t pay you today but I’d like to start paying you about 20 bucks a week and I start paying you $20 a week and some morning I wake up and I say by Godly that sucker’s paid off too and then I go to the next one and then the next one then the next one and someday I wake up and by Godly they’re all paid off and the fear and the guilt and remorse is gone I feel good back here in the back of my head now after that guilt and remorse and fear is gone now a guy came to me one time and we were discussing this and he said Charlie if I tried to pay them so much a week do you know how old I’d be before I got them paid off I said you’ll be the same age as you would be if you didn’t pay them off it don’t make any difference you know I’ve lived long enough to know that time is going to pass I wish I could stop it but I can’t and as time passes I can use it for a worthwhile purpose do something about these things or I can keep putting it off and putting it off and putting it off and 5 years or 10 years or 15 years from now still be in the same situation and may be drunk in the meantime we have a good friend used to live in Tulsa moved out here to California he’s gone now he’s dead name was Dan when Dan was 29 years sober he said Charlie I paid the last one of them last week I said Dan how do you feel he said I feel about 8T tall now Dan was a little bitty fell about 5 foot one he said this is the first time in my life that I can ever remember that I don’t owe somebody something for what I’ve stolen in the past he said I feel pretty good about Old Dan Dan owed a lot of money when he was drinking he was in the oil business down Texas and and he hooked them and he hooked them big took him 29 years to pay him but by golly he got it done I tell you how good a con artist Dan was when he was still drinking in Texas his wife Sarah who later became a beautiful member of alanon she took him to the state in sa asylum in Big Spring Texas to have him committed for alcoholic Insanity the head psychiatrist interviewed Sarah then he interviewed Dan and after a while Dan left and Sarah was locked up true she stayed there for a year she learned how to live better electrically and all that goody goody stuff in there Dan was a real con artist Joe you know Dan did it he paid back a lot of money it’s not a lot of money out here in California but Oklahoma it’s a lot of money they a lot of money yeah you guys got plenty of money out here we all know that but uh Dan paid them all back and I I spent many many many days and and playing bridge with Dan and Sarah and he and my wife and they were uh teaching us the program a lot sharing with us and they paid a lot of money back now You’ have thought the money kind of money he paid back would have kept him broke but he didn’t he prospered in other ways he wasn’t Rich when he died but he had a very comfortable living throughout all those years and he prospered as a result of doing the right things with his debts and again I hear some of you saying I can hear awful good he he’s good I hear some of you saying Charlie that that stuff’s probably all right for $1,200 or $2,000 or maybe 10,000 but what if it’s a half a million what if it’s a million what if it’s 2 million could we pay that back I don’t know why not if we’re smart enough to steal it we probably smart enough to pay it back if we’re willing to do so you know I think we forget from step three on God’s with us and if we’re willing to do these things God’s going to make it possible to do so just like he did for Dan Dan didn’t die a rich man but Dan died a very comfortable man God saw that Dan had the means to be able to pay these people back the willingness is what it takes to do this and it really works for People Like Us on page 79 about the middle of the page it talks about where other people are involved and we need to really really consider this now sometimes in our Zeal to be forgiven for the things we’ve done in the past we make amends where we end up hurting the one we owe amends to even more or possibly hurt somebody else and if we do that then sooner or later we’re going to have to go back and make amends for that too so we have to be very very careful whether other people are involved over on page 80 there he had an example on page 80 where he uh he went to the people involved and got their permission to make the amend before he made it in order to be sure everything was going to be okay bottom of page 80 he starts talking about domestic troubles page 81 he talks about sex outside of marriage what are we going to do about those kind of things very carefully he handles just about every conceivable situation that could come up you know people I work with usually we can find the answer to their amends as to whether they should make it or shouldn’t and and how to make it here in the big book covers just about all situations the key thing I think and Joe said it while ago is get somebody else’s advice you know I’ve seen too many people jump into these amends too fast and not only hurt other people but end up destroying a family destroying a relationship with another human being completely you know I think that we should go to our sponsors get get their help get their advice before we even start making these amends especially where it involves maybe hurting other people page 83 third paragraph there may be some wrongs we could never fully write you know some of these people are already dead and buried some of them to make the amends would hurt them or others and we can’t do that we don’t worry about them we can honestly say to ourselves that we would write them if we could some people cannot be seen we send them an honest letter there may be a valid reason for postponement in some cases but we don’t delay if it can be avoided we should be sensible tactful considerate and humble without being survi or scraping as God’s people we stand on our feet we don’t crawl before anyone you know one mistake I see us making is we go to somebody and try to make our amends and they don’t accept it they didn’t all accept mine some of them said Charlie we didn’t like you when you were drinking not too damn crazy about you now we just soon you get out of here and leave us alone and when that happens to us it just crushes us and we tend to want to go back and go back and go back and literally beg those people to forgive us we don’t need to do that if they don’t accept it there’s nothing we can do about that about all we can do is stand in Readiness to make it at a later date if the opportunity comes up but we certainly do not have to crawl before anyone we are God’s people too you know as I said here this morning and I came painfully aware joyfully aware to me this year all those situations that I used to have that I thought needed to make amends are all taken care of I mean every one of them and I tell you about two here this morning if you will when I was drinking I had a mobile home up uh north and west of Tulsa a lake called Lake Keystone didn’t think my wife knew anything about about it nice place and uh one morning in the middle of the night there was a knock on the door and I finally come to the door and I I opened it up and what she did she just broke in pis did and I really wasn’t having a good time embarrassed me in front of my girlfriend yeah and our daughter she brought the daughter with her I was not having a good time and now Gail she was affected by my drinking of course and she when she was 17 years old just a few days after she was 17 she got married to get away from Phyllis nich Phyllis is in the program of Alcoholic Anonymous now some 23 years she’s been sober thank God but Gail was affected by this and I and I the book says a remorseful mumbling won’t fill the bill at all well of course I tried to make a few amends verbally to Gail and you know that didn’t she she said that’s okay but it wasn’t until 6 years ago I sober 19 years and talking to Gail on the phone she was living up in Columbus Ohio and she said Daddy uh Thing Happened Here recently said her sister-in-law had died and her husband had died unexpectedly and left two kids for someone else to raise and she said if something should happened like that to Gim and I said would you and Mom take the kids you know that’s when I knew she really had forgiven me that’s it took 19 years a remorseful mumbling won’t fil the bill at all now I’m sober in Al College Anonymous for 2 and 1/2 years and pH I get back together 9 years later I’m standing in the back of the room and greeting people as they come in to the meeting place that night and I looked around and here’s the lady of the mobile home incident phis is at the coffee pot phis at the coffee pot getting coffee and she looked over their shoulder you know it all happened just about that quick I I believe you’ll get an opportunity to handle all these situations God makes it wherever possible and uh some of the guys was aware of this situation they said what did she say I said she didn’t say anything for about a week and we were at another meeting and here’s this lady and she was trying to get sober and come to AA and again and another meeting and here’s this lady and Phils began to talk ugly to me they’ll do that you know and I began to pay the price again begin to feel bad about it again well after about 2 or 3 weeks of this and one night she was settled down she’d come back down through the ceiling and we were able to talk about this and I said phis you know I’ve already paid one hell of a price for this I mean I have already paid one hell of a price physically morally spiritually financially in every way you can pay and uh what I’m trying to tell you is I’m not paying anymore I say it’s just like last month’s gas bill I paid that one and I’m not paying that one no more they’ll let you pay forever if you’ll pay there comes a time when you quit paying we don’t have to crawl before anyone we make our amends to the best of our ability and go on about our business okay if you write with God in 1 2 and three you write with yourself in 4 56 and 7 you’re WR with you fellow man in 8 and nine for the first time as far back as we can remember we’re well in all three dimensions of Life we’ve been put back together as God intended for us to be in the first place now if you’re well in all three dimensions of life you’re going to feel pretty good I don’t think it’s by accident the very next thing are the promises they come immediately after this program of action so if we’re painstaking about this phase of our development we’ll be amazed before we’re halfway through which phase of our development well the eight and N phase yeah we’re going to know a new freedom and a new happiness we will not regret the past no wish to shut the door on it we will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace no matter how far down the scale we’ve gone we’ll see how our experience can benefit others that feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear we will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows self-seeking will slip away our whole whole attitude and Outlook upon life will change fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us we will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us we will suddenly realiz that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves are these extravagant prophecies we think not they’re being fulfilled Among Us sometimes quickly spiritual experience sometimes slowly Spiritual Awakening but they will always materialize if we work for them you know I’ve had some very horrendous hangovers in my time and I know that you guys have too and I have thrown up sometimes of something horrendously blood and all in my drinking career but you know those kind of experiences never caused me to want to quit drinking what caused me wanted to quit drinking was the guilt shame and remorse that I had as a result of the harm that I did other people and these promises begin to come about in my life they came about not in my body but in my mind I begin to experience these things in my mind and I knew of course that the program was working for me and I’m free of those things today thank God I’m going to read them again I’m going to add a few words to them and the word words I’m going to add to them refer to the time when I was young when alcohol was my friend when I could drink it and be Fred to stare on the dance floor and the world’s greatest lover in a backseat of a 36 Chevrolet this is the way alcohol used to make me feel before it turned against me whenever I took a drink of alcohol I knew a new freedom and a new happiness whenever I took a drink of alcohol I did not regret the past or wish to shut the door door on it whenever I took a drink of alcohol I would comprehend the word serenity and I would know peace whenever I took a drink of alcohol no matter how far down the scale I had gone I could see how my experience would benefit others whenever I took a drink of alcohol that feeling of uselessness and self-pity would disappear whenever I took a drink of alcohol I would lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in my fellows whenever I took a drink of alcohol self-seeking would slip away whenever I took a drink of alcohol my whole attitude and Outlook upon life would change whenever I took a drink of alcohol fear of people and economic insecurity would leave me whenever I took a drink of alcohol I would intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle me whenever I took a drink of alcohol I would suddenly realize that alcohol was doing for me what I could not do for myself now think about that a moment my God no wonder I love to drink when you find anything that will do that much for you you immediately become mentally addicted to the use of it whatever it is if it had been chocolate ice cream my God I would have been addicted to chocolate ice cream if it had been Hostess Twinkies it would have been Hostess Twinkies if it had been gambling it would have been gambling mine was alcohol alcohol did for me what I could not do for myself and it was my friend and it worked for me like magic for years but one day alcohol turned against me and all the things I was afraid would happen to me now begin to happen because of the alcohol itself I became a very very confused individual not knowing I was alcoholic not knowing I would never be able to recapture these feelings from alcohol I spent the last four five 6 years of my drinking desperately trying to get these things back from alcohol almost destroyed me in the process I came to AA you gave me a book I found a little program of action in this book I began to apply it in my life and one day I woke up and found these promises in my head and I suddenly realized that the first nine steps of our alcoholic annonymous are doing just exactly for me what alcohol used to do for me when alcohol was my friend you see that’s why I don’t drink today if I hadn’t found this somewhere I would still be searching for it I would probably have gone back to alcohol until eventually it completely consumed me and destroyed me but I don’t need to drink because I found everything good that alcohol gave me through the first nine steps of alcoholic synonymous that’s the miracle of alcoholic synonymous and at the same time I realized it’s giving me the good I also realized the first nine steps have never turned against me as alcohol did I’ve never been placed in jail because of the first nine steps no lady has ever drugged me through a divorce court because of the first nine steps I’ve never vomited damn near did a time or two but I’ve never really vomited because of the first nine steps you see that’s the miracle and if you read those promises you’ll notice they all deal with a mind none of them deal with the body we came here Restless irritable discontented filled with shame fear guilt remorse worry anger depression and Etc we’ve worked the steps we received the promises certainly we have undergone a change in our personality we have undergone a spiritual awakening already now if that’s true then what’s the purpose of the last three steps and many people will tell us the last three steps are to maintain our sobriety I will agree that they will help us stay sober but the word maintenance itself is a misnomer to maintain something means to keep it as is and another natural law applies nothing in our universe ever stays as is everything in our universe is in a constant state of change it’s either growing or it’s dying it’s progressing or it’s regressing it’s going forward or it’s going back now we’ve made a tremendous amount of spiritual growth through the first nine steps if we’ve got the promises but if we tried to maintain this eventually we start slipping back and we start having trouble with people then with ourselves then with God and we end up drunk all over again now how do I know that I see it happening a a over and over and over again that’s what happens when people like us who have had a good program go back and get drunk again it’s because we stopped growing and you can’t stop growing if you do you start dying thank you for listening to sober Sunrise if you enjoyed today’s episode please give it a thumbs up up as it will help share the message until next time have a great day