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We hope that you enjoy today's speaker. >> I'm an alcoholic. My name is Mike.

>> Grateful to be sober. Welcome you guys. You're new or relatively new.

>> Yeah. It's not my favorite thing either, Steve. So, you're not alone.

Um cuz I always feel self-conscious. See, I what I really want is I want everybody to like me, you know, and and uh um and I know it's not going to happen. It's just not the way it is in in Alcoholics Anonymous cuz I'm going to carry my experience.

Um and and some of you are just not going to jive with. And to some of you, it's going to sound like I'm telling you what to do. And if it sounds like that, then that's what it is, you know, but um you know, I was separated from alcohol August 17th, 1989.

And um and for that, I'm grateful. And I was talking before the meeting with Greg there. And uh you know in early sobriety I went to beans whole time.

You know I went to meet like three or four times a day. I got sober up in uh El Toro area. Used to be called El Toro.

They called Lake Forest now cuz they're sort of hitty twitty. You know they change the name. But uh it was El Toro.

And I got sober at this little clubhouse and and I was going basically there but a bunch of other meetings. You know I'd go to the 6 a.m. because I couldn't sleep anyways, you know.

So couldn't wait to get to a 6:00 a.m. Not that I really like cuz here's the deal. I go to that 6 a.m.

meeting and and everybody you guys were so happy, you know, and you know, oh Mike, you know, they want to hug me and have a cup of coffee and I just get away from me, you know. Um I was not a people person, you know, especially not at 6:00 a.m. and uh and then I'd usually hang out for the 7:30 if I could if I wasn't working that night that day or or wasn't working till later and try to get back to the noon 5:30 every day and then usually a later meeting because well cuz I had nothing going on in my life, you know.

I wouldn't have said that at the time, but that's that's the truth, you know. And um and it was good. It was good for a period of time, you know.

I I was separated from alcohol. I was going to meetings and and I kept hearing this message, you know, keep coming back. It gets better.

Keep coming back. It gets better. And and the only problem was for me wasn't getting any better, you know.

Um this this this didn't change much, you know. and and I'd come to meetings and I and I heard all the all the slogans, you know, um look for the similarities, you know, don't look for the differences, look for the similarities. But that's not how my mind worked, you know.

I grew up looking for the differences, you know, in in in my family, the way I grew up was I wanted to I I just wanted to be separate, you know. I wanted to be different. Um I wanted to be special, you know, and I didn't feel special, you know, um you know, up until probably five years of sobriety, I I had this I had this idea that um that I was like the black sheep of the family and and that uh you know, most of the family really didn't like me that much and and uh and and and you know, my brother and my sister were my mom's favorites, you know, until I until I did like my third inventory.

And um and really like the truth and the truth was she spent a lot more time with me cuz cuz I was always in trouble, you know. So, um, whether I was the favorite or not, she spent a lot of time with me and spent a lot of time on my stuff, you know, and, uh, I don't know, grow growing up, you know, I just I my my thinking was just so wrong and and and I can see that today. But when I was growing up, that was my thinking, you know, by the time I got to to high school, all I wanted to do was stay wasted.

That's all I cared about, staying wasted, you know, and uh, and it didn't really matter what I had to do to do it, you I mean, I was pretty, some people like to call it functional. Um, the book calls an actor, you know. I was a good actor, you know, and and I knew what to say and and who to talk to and and you know, I always tried to have some kind of job that would justify my drinking, you know, and uh and so by the time I got to Alcoholic synonymous for for the second time, you know, it wasn't the first time.

Um, you know, I was pretty well spent, but I wouldn't have told you that. You know, I didn't I didn't tell you what I really felt like because how I grew up is we don't talk about that kind of stuff. You know, you don't you don't share that stuff with the neighbors.

You don't talk about you don't talk about any of your fears. You know, you're a man. Just buck up, you know.

And um you don't share any of those uh character defects or the dark hidden secrets with anybody because what happens is if somebody finds out, they're going to use it against you, you know, and and so for a period of time in in Alcoholics Anonymous, I wasn't sharing none of that stuff. What I would do is I would share at least once a day. I would share um some drama that was going on in my life.

You know, I was, you know, I was getting that uh second divorce that was taking forever and living with my first ex-wife and trying to force that relationship to work and and uh you know, she wasn't treating me right and you know, my boss wouldn't give me a raise because uh well, he he told me flat out. I mean, he was honest. He was honest.

you know, it was a job that was given to me in sobriety. And um and he told me, he goes, "You're you're not going to be here long. These other guys that I'm giving raises to, they're going to be with me forever cuz they have nowhere else to go.

You know, they're either going to work in a restaurant or they're going to work this whole construction deal that I got going." And uh and you're going to be gone. And and the truth was I was, you know, with within a couple months. Um, but at the time it was like a big drama, you know, and I would share whatever drama is going on in my life and a little little tear would come out, you know, and um because I wanted you to feel for me, you know, um but I wouldn't share the heartfelt stuff, you know.

In fact, I wouldn't even I didn't even want to look at that. And so what happened was after a period of time in sobriety, I was about about 4 months sober. Um like I said, going to three to four meetings, I thought I I really thought I was doing the whole deal.

You know, I had a book and I had a sponsor and my sponsor's basic message was take your time, you know, and I know that's that's some sponsor's messages and I'm not knocking if that's your message. Um well, maybe I am, but um for me it was a message of death, you know, cuz I was getting sicker. The longer I was sober, the sicker I was getting and um because once again, I was looking at the differences.

You guys seemed happy and I wasn't happy. You know, I just wasn't a happy camper. You know, I'd come to meetings and I'd see people and they were laughing and they were going to the movies afterwards and it just appeared like everybody was getting sober, you know, uh more than physically sober.

They were getting emotionally sober and they were having a good time and and it wasn't happening in my life, you know, and um and what happened is I hit a bottom in sobriety. It was a Wednesday, a noon meeting and and I remember going to that meeting. I sat in my customary place right under the clock, you know.

I mean, I was like a fixture at this club. I mean, everybody knew me, you know. That's a dangerous time when everybody knows you and they know your name.

But uh I was sitting under that clock and and I couldn't stop crying and I was I was just weeping, you know, and and I'm 6' three. I'm a macho man. I don't don't cry.

Not like that, you know. That's ridiculous, you know. And uh and I couldn't stop, you know, and and and I wasn't sharing.

I mean, I was just the whole meeting's going on and I'm just weeping during this whole meeting cuz I knew it was done. Um life was never going to get any better. My life sucked and it was not getting better and sobriety was not working.

you guys were lying to me and and I wasn't drinking and and it was tough not drinking, you know, and um and I heard this guy this guy share. He was sitting right across from me and I might have seen him before. I don't know.

Um but I heard him loud and clear, you know, and he had a message that it just hit me right in the heart, you know, and it wasn't anything that I might have heard it before. I might have I might I might have been in a meeting, somebody else shared it before, but it didn't hit me until then. And the message was I could get better.

You know, he shared what it was like for him, what happened, which was probably the most important part, and uh and what it was like today. And and the truth is his life was no great shakes. He had three years of sobriety.

He had some crummy car. He had some ugly girlfriend. Had some crummy job, you know.

Um but he was sober 3 years, you know, and and he was comfortable. And I was not comfortable, you know. And um so after the meeting, you know, my face is still all wet and everything, you know, and and everybody's coming out and looking at me and and and I asked him for his phone.

I didn't want to ask him to be my sponsor cuz he might say no. So um I still had too much ego for that. So I asked him for his number and I couldn't wait, you know, I waited about 10 minutes till he got home and and rushed home and called him up and asked him to be my sponsor and uh and you know that more than likely that guy saved my life um because I needed exactly what he gave me.

you know, he gave me explicit direction on what I needed to do. I would call him every day, you know, every day. He wanted me to do, you know, just a few things.

And most of them I was doing. He wanted me to go to a meeting every day. He wanted me to to uh pray every day.

He wanted me to read the big book. He wanted me to to um call him and call another alcoholic, which is probably the hardest thing for me to do cuz I was not into calling other people, you know. Um cuz I had nothing to say.

I was, like I said, I wasn't a people person, you know. Uh, I chose this other buddy of mine that got sober within 2 weeks of me before. I think he got sober before me 2 weeks.

And um, and so I call him, I go, "Mark, how you doing?" He goes, "Good." I go, "You going to the meeting?" He goes, "Yep." I go, "See you there." And that was it. You know, and and that was the but that was the start, you know, and uh and and the sponsor wanted me to work on the steps, you know. He asked me what step I was on.

And he didn't give me formal direction the way the way I would work with somebody today. Um, but it was enough. It was enough.

And um you know every day I would call them and and what I wanted to do was talk about her. You know uh I wanted you know really I wanted a sponsor like I thought my other friends had and maybe they did. I wanted a a sponsor who was like the dad that I never had that would listen to me that would pat me on the back and tell me how wonderful I was and um you know take my side you know and tell me what a good guy I was and you're doing good Mike.

And um and I never heard that, you know, uh I'd start talking about her and he'd go, "Well, did you do this? Did you do that?" "Yeah, what step are you on?" And I'd think, you know, you know what? You're my sponsor.

You know what step I'm on? You know, every day he'd ask me this. And he go, "Okay, see you later." Click.

And that was it. You know, and I think this sucks. You know, um it just didn't appear like I had the relationship that that I wanted.

But the truth is that's exactly what I needed. You know, I needed somebody that was no BS. I needed somebody that was um that would just give they just didn't candy coat it for me.

You know, he told me if I wanted to get better, I was going to have to work the steps, you know. And uh and that's what I needed to hear cuz the truth is where we got sober probably within a 6-month period, there was a few hundred people that came through that club. And some of them just maybe some of them still sober that I that I don't know of, but um I know of myself, my wife, and uh maybe like three other people that are still sober.

And it hasn't been that long. I mean, 15 years, that's that's really not a long period of time. Um I mean, it is it is and it isn't, you know, but uh you know, I look at the recovery rate in in in the early days, Alcoholics Anonymous, and I don't have to guess and I don't have to take anybody's word for it.

They wrote it all down for us in these history books. You know, AA comes of age, I think I saw over there, and and Dr. Bob and the good old-timers and Bill W pass Pass It On.

They wrote all this stuff down for us and let us know exactly what it used to be like and what they had to do. The book tells me specifically why they wrote the book, you know, to tell me exactly how to recover from alcoholism. And, you know, I thank God that I that I got a hold of that sponsor.

Um cuz what happened is I got better you know slowly slowly and uh I met met my wife here. Um, you know, I had uh 6 months of sobriety, right? About 6 months of sobriety and going going to all those meetings, you know, um, probably like I was telling Greg, probably hiding out in AA, but I didn't know any better, you know, and I didn't have nothing else going on.

So, I'm going to all these meetings and and I'm not looking for anybody, you know, but um but it just happened, you know, and so so I never tell anybody, you know, that don't date a newcomer or or don't get in a relationship for the first year. Um, cuz I didn't do it. So, I wouldn't I wouldn't like give anybody direction to do anything I didn't do.

Um, but but it took a lot of work, you know, we met and and uh you know, within a short period of time. Here's here's the truth. We met we went on a date and I asked her to go to a meeting.

That was that was our first world that was our first our first date, you know, and um it was this little meeting out in Cotto Kaza. And and I um cuz in my mind I figured, you know, if she said yes that she'd go, maybe she just wanted to go to the meeting, you know, and and if she said no, maybe she just didn't want to go to the meeting. So I was safe, you know, emotionally I was safe either way, you know, and um and she said yes and we went to this meeting and and I took her out afterwards to this high class place, you guys know, Carl's Jr.

and um spent 45 cents on a cup of coffee for her and and I told her my whole life story pretty much, you know. I mean, all the dirty all the dirty stuff. I mean, not not everything, but I mean, and I don't know what I was trying to do cuz, you know, that was ridiculous, you know.

I mean, here's a beautiful woman and I'm telling her all this stuff to push her away. Um, and I told her Alcoholics Anonymous was my life, you know, and if you want to see me, you're going to have to go to a lot of meetings. And um and she kept coming around, you know, and uh you know, we've been married for a long time now and and it's a pretty good life.

It's a pretty good life, but it but it took a lot of work, you know. Um you know, I look I I go to a lot of meetings still, you know. I probably go to 10 meetings a week.

Um which to some's a lot, to some it's not, but for me it's it's what's working. and and and I work with a lot of new guys and and I see in their eyes the pain that I used to see in the mirror, you know, and um and I don't ever want to feel like that again, you know. The truth is I haven't had to.

But I've had to got go through a lot of tough times. When I when I was about four years sober, four and a four and a half years sober, I hit another bottom. And I'm sure it's never going to happen to you.

It's what happened to me, though. you know, I was going to meetings. Probably going to 20 meetings a week that at that time, you know, I was a service all over the place.

I sponsored a bunch of guys. I was, you know, Orange County Service Board. I was H&I.

I was I was Mr. AA. You know, I've been chairman of the club a couple times by then.

And and um and all of a sudden, I'm sitting in meetings and you know, I'm just you know, the book talks about restless, irritable, and discontent. That's really what was happening. You know, I'm tired of the newcomers getting all the attention.

Newcomers get all the attention. You know, people go up and hug them and they get all the attention. And I'm tired of hearing them talk and I'm tired of hearing all the knuckleheads talk that I've known for years.

I've heard their story. I'm sick of it, you know, and and I'm tired of hearing myself, you know. Um, but by then my ego's wrapped up in sobriety and what am I going to do, you know?

So, I figured I'm just going to keep going to media. I mean, I don't I really don't have a choice, you know. I got a sponsor that was a good sponsor and um, you know, the truth is it had been a number of years since I done any real step work.

You know, I was trying to carry a message that really I didn't have in my life anymore. Dr. Tibo wrote about it years ago that our ego rebuilds itself and and that's exactly what had happened.

You know, I was living on this this idea that what I did in the past was good enough to keep me sober that what you know in my mind and it didn't sound like this, but in retrospect I can see it's all about Mike. Mike goes to meetings. Mike sponsors guys.

Mike's a service. Mike. Mike.

Mike. Mike. Mike.

Mike. like bunch of BS, you know, and uh you know, I thank God that uh I had a buddy come back from Texas. He had gone to this conference and and these other AA knuckleheads put on this this conference and and he gave me this set of tapes and I listened to these tapes and I was just like in the right place at the right time.

I I I started going down the road and I start crying. I hear these guys carrying this message to me through the tape. Um and they talked about this concept of relief verse freedom.

you know that most of us, them included, they they had hit those bottoms. Most of us settle for relief. You know, we get here, we do a few things.

We get some relief. It feels better. You know, we're not drinking now.

You know, if I see a cop in the rearview mirror, so what? You know, I got insurance now. You know, the wife, she let me back in the big bed.

I got the job now. stuff's stuff's doing okay, you know, and um but that's a far cry from the freedom that's really offered here, you know, and that uh in their opinion and what seems to be true what the book talks about um that it's only through this continual surrender. It's only through working the steps over and over again that I get to the place where where I'm really connected with this higher power that solves my problems and that I could feel comfortable, you know, and um and so I got to the place where I was willing to to do the deal again.

And the truth is I was surrounded by people who were telling me, "You don't need to do that. You're a service. You've done this stuff before.

You got a sponsor. You sponsor guys. You don't need to do that.

You certainly don't need to write another four step." In fact, in fact, there was an old-timer um who's gone now and I and I still love him to death and I loved him then. And uh his message was if he had to do another four step, we'd probably kill him. And maybe it would have.

I don't I don't know. I know for me, I had to do another fourth step. I had to do another fifth step.

I had to do I had to do the whole process again and and see some truths that I didn't want to see. you know, some stuff that I had still buried even the first time doing the steps and get to the place that that I really sought out this power greater than myself. Um, you know, the conception that I have today is different than it was back then, but it doesn't really matter.

The book talks about that God, you know, that God doesn't make too hard a terms with those who earnestly seek. And uh and so that's what I did. you know, I I started doing um for me was uh opening my mind a little bit, you know, and and and asking this higher power to come into my life and and looking at my stuff and and doing the steps again and and things got better slowly.

It's it's always slowly, you know, it's never fast. See, alcohol does everything for me at certain time. It did everything for me that AA does today.

Like God, you know, I take a drink and that restless, irritable, discontent feeling goes away. problem is I can't I don't stop at one drink. You know, I just drink and drink and drink and create wreckage.

Then I, you know, come to and, you know, have this wreckage and I need to try to make amends for well, it's not really a mend. It's apologies and um and then I go on another vendor and it goes over and over. The doctor's opinion talks about that and u and that was my life before.

But today I do these certain actions and it takes longer to get to that place of ease and comfort, but it lasts, you know, and I don't have any wreckage to where I have to make amends for. Um, you know, my life's been continual, you know, maybe I've been blessed. I don't know.

I I know I know I got friends that that just don't have to do this what I do. They just don't, you know, and they appear to be comfortable, you know, and they're they're going to meetings, one or two meetings a week. I got a good friend of mine that goes to one meeting a week and um and he's worked the steps a couple times but he goes to one meeting a week.

He sponsors one guy and uh and he seems to be fine, you know. Um I know for me I just couldn't do that, you know. I I had to it's just like my life before AA.

I had to do this thing full on, you know, and uh and I've been placed in in positions over and over. My my ego's placed me, you know, in positions over and over again where uh where I had to surrender. You know, we talks about self-imposed crisises here in this book.

You know, and as I look back, I never think it's a self-imposed crisis until I get on the other side. I always think it's you guys. You know, she did something, they did something, somebody said something.

It's always you. It's never me, you know, till I get on the other side and I see it was me all along. And um and so I' I've been placed in these positions where I just had to surrender.

you know, we were married for for a few years and um and we had a couple couple kids and and uh and once again, you know, I I I thought I was I thought I was doing doing everything and and um it's it's not that I've been blindsided by stuff. That's what I thought at the time, you know, that I'm blindsided with stuff, but some stuff came up in our marriage. I thought everything was great.

If you would asked me, I said, "It's fine. Our relationship's fine. There's nothing wrong here.

I'm going to 15 to 20 meetings a week, you know, she's going to a couple meetings a week, you know, and and raising the kids. And and by that time, I had got a real job, you know, um which I didn't have for for, you know, a number of years. Um and and and some some issues came up in in our relationship that uh that I was forced to look at, you know, and and I didn't want to look at that, you know, and she's telling me stuff like uh you know, all her girlfriends and and uh this is this is the this is the best thing.

I forget the verbiage they were using. This is going to be the best thing for your rel your relationship's going to be stronger. It didn't feel like it at the time.

You know, what it felt like is we were going to split up. That's what it felt like. And um and once again, if I would have listened to if I would have listened to most of the people in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, we probably would have split up, you know, because there was people surrounding me telling me she's wrong and blahy blahy blahy and you deserve better and look at everything you do and and all that.

And and I know she told me she was surrounded by people telling her exactly the same thing. You're right, he's wrong, all this, you know. Um but uh but we didn't you know and uh and once again I had to I had to hit the place of surrender where I was willing to look at my part and and everything that we've been through I can honestly say everything we've been through has been a blessing and we've been through numerous things.

you know, my daughter is uh 23 now and um from my from my first marriage and you know, when we first when we first got together and and then we got married, um I had this sponsor, you know, the the latex hall, great man, who continued to tell me, Mike, this daughter is going to want to come live with you. And I thought, oh man, you're crazy. You know, I wouldn't tell him that, but that's what I thought.

You know, you're crazy. She doesn't She's living with her mom. her mom lets her do whatever she wants to do.

We don't have any money or anything. What does she want to come live with us for? But he told me that if you continue to put these principles in your life, you continue to to uh be consistent in your life, that's going to be attractive to her.

And uh and it was you know and a per a few years later she w she she came and asked to live with us you know and um and that was a struggle for both of us you know and and I know it was a struggle on her on the relationship with his daughter who who continued to try to get us to choose sides and and try to separate us and and um you know I was talking I was talking with uh one of my relatives is actually here tonight and and we were talking about uh about life and I said life's always life's always tough. You know, soy's been tough. You know, soy's been real tough, but it's been real good, too.

It's been real good. You know, we got we got two boys, 13 and 11, that have never seen either one of us drink. and and you know, instead of this black sheep that I used to think I was, um, you know, my mom, one of the reasons I moved back to San Diego was cuz my mom's down here and, uh, you know, I'm I'm I'm able to be there for her and to listen to and and and and to do things with her.

She went with us last year on vacation and she's going with us again in about 3 weeks or 4 weeks up to Canada on vacation. And you know, soiety has given me this. You know, I was not I was not the kind of guy.

In fact, in my world, I was never I was going to get married again. I mean, there's no doubt because that's the way I always was. I was get married, but I was never going to own a home cuz I didn't want the responsibility, you know.

I was never going to, you know, like pay my taxes when they were supposed to be paid or anything. I mean, I was always living on the edge, you know, and and uh and even in early sobriety, um I just wanted nothing to do with being a regular Joe. But when I was about uh 2 years sober, year sober, I don't know.

I was sober a little while. We we had already been to been together, but I don't think we're married yet. Um I actually voted for the first time.

See, that might not be a big thing to you, but to me, that was a big thing. In fact, I gave the gal I gave the gal my voter, you know, the the ballot and everything and I'm crying and she wanted to know what was wrong, you know, and she just didn't understand, you know, I'd never been a part of society before. I didn't want to be a part of society.

I mean, I'd been, you know, I had regular jobs and stuff, but in my mind, I was not a part of you guys. I was different. I was separate, you know, and I never wanted to be a part of you.

and and Alcoholics Anonymous has given me the opportunity to become a part of rather than a part from um you know if you're new or relatively new and and see I could I could tell you all about all these drunkal logs and all these things from from early from early on from the from the age of three when I when I climbed up the the kitchen counter and got the big thing of cough syrup that had alcohol and codine and chugged half of it and made my brother take a sip of it and they rushed us to the hospital and got our stomachs pumped or you know the time when I was nine years old and and went down to the the I don't know if it was Circle K or 7-Eleven or whatever it was and got some knucklehead that was over 21 to buy us a six-ack of beer. It's amazing to me, man. But he did, you know, I gave him five bucks, he gave me a six-pack and he kept the change.

So, he was happy, I guess. Um I mean, you know, Addy, if I mean, I can just go on all these drunk drunk stories and tell you all this stuff, this wreckage that happened, you know, the marriages and stuff. Um but if that didn't happen to you, you're not going to identify with that.

you know, cuz it really doesn't matter what I did to get here. The truth is I got here and I didn't even want to be here. You know, I got here, like I said, on August 17th, ' 89.

And and I came in on a fluke. You know, I'd been to Alcoholics Anonymous before and and um I was living with a relative and and and there was some there was some stuff going on in the house there. you know, I had my, you know, first ex-wife and my daughter and myself living in this relative's house and and um he he was going on these benders and disappearing and and so I'm stuck there with his kids and his wife and my first ex-wife, you know, it was just a nightmare, you know, and I'm trying to hide my drinking.

I was I was probably only drinking maybe a 12-pack a day, which that was that's nothing, you No, I mean 12 pack a day is nothing. But I don't know why I had to hide it, but I always, you know, had to like sneak out and put bottles different places. But um but the you know, the truth is I was getting pissed because he wasn't taking me with him on those benders, you know, and uh and a phone call came one morning.

It was him and he needed a ride cuz he couldn't drive and and um and his wife told me go pick him up and don't come back. don't bring him back, you know, and and and something told me when I got there, you know, that I better call her and tell her, you know, I'll take him to Alcoholics. That's the only thing I can think of.

I'll take him to Alcoholics Anonymous. Well, the truth is I was trying to protect myself probably, too, cuz I didn't, you know, if he got kicked out of the house, where was I going to go? You know, I'm living in that house, too.

You know, she probably doesn't want me around. And um and so we went to Alcoholics Anonymous that night. And and I remember that meeting.

It was in this we lived in this private community up there, Cotto Kaza. And um there was a little meeting in the clubhouse there and and and we went in and there was it was probably about this size. There was like 15 or 20 people there and and I hadn't been around AA for 3 and 1/2 years.

You know, I've been drinking and doing other stuff and created more wreckage for 3 and 1/2 years. you know, I've gotten, you know, married and divorced again and and all this stuff, you know, and um and I show up in this meeting and and um and you're so happy to see me, you know, and I totally forgot what it was like, you know. I I had forgot that when AAS look at you and they ask you how you're doing, they really want to know, you know, how you doing, you know, and and and when they when they laugh, they're most time they're really laughing.

It's not some phony, you know, I was in sales. I mean, I was used to the phony laugh and everything was phony to me. But here, these people were they were so real, they almost glowed.

I mean, it was like it was like a surreal experience to me, you know, and um and it was scary. It was really scary, you know, but it was attractive, too. And I knew this is probably what I should be doing.

Um I'm missing out on something here. And uh and so that's when I started doing, you know, what I told you I was doing, going to all these meetings. And um you know, I've had to hit every bottom.

You know, I uh for me, I I I think my perception is I think God puts me in that continual place. My ego grows and then I just get sort of like slapped upside the head because I get too uppidity, you know, and and I think I'm doing it myself. Um and and that's not what we're supposed to be doing.

I don't believe that's not what the book tells me. In fact, I hear a lot of stuff in meetings. Like I said, I go to a lot of meetings still and I hear a lot of stuff that that just doesn't coincide with the program that I read in the book and the program that I have to work.

I was in a meeting today and it was a step meeting and they were talking about the eightstep and like I said earlier if this if if you think I'm talking to you you know maybe I am maybe I'm not but um there was all kinds of opinions thrown out about the eightstep you know and uh and this guy I love he's got like 33 years you know he was asked to share and and it's a podium participation and and uh his basic message was you know that uh his suggestion would be put yourself on the top of the list you know on that hatep and um that you need to make amends to yourself first and and you hurt yourself more than you hurt anybody else and it just doesn't coincide with what I read in the book you know you know it talks about Mike's problem selfishness and self-centerness that we think is the root of the problem and it says that I must be rid of this I must or it kills me and he gives me specific directions on how to do this and to get rid of this selfishness for a period of time you know and I I think it's a it's a selfless program. It's not a selfish program. And and I just have to think of things a certain way because I know I think where my passion comes from more than anything is is I don't want to die drunk.

I just don't, you know, I don't want to die drunk. I I don't want to put my wife through uh having a husband going out and drinking. Um I don't want my kids to see me that way.

I don't want to create that wreckage. I don't want my mom crying anymore about where's Mike, you know, and and how come he hasn't called? We were talking before the meeting, you know, there was a time when I was in the Air Force.

I didn't call her for like 3 months, you know. Now, there was nothing going on in my life. I was busy.

I was drinking every day, you know, and I'm and I'm working and I'm drinking and I'm working and I'm drinking and and I didn't have any thought for my mother, you know. Why would I call why would I call my I don't need my mom anymore, you know? I mean, I just had no thought for her.

Selfish and self-centered. And so, she had to call my first sergeant and see if I was okay. >> >> that conversation didn't go real well when he called me in his office, you know, and uh but that's just the way I was, you know, and today it's not like that.

Um, today I got a good life and like I said at the beginning, I I want to be liked by everybody, but I know it's not going to happen. you know, I got a strong personality and and and I've been told that and and and there's certain people think I'm preaching at them and um and the truth is they don't want to do the deal, you know, or they don't have to do the deal. You know, not everybody alcoholics anonymous is an alcoholic.

There's a lot of people, there's friends of mine that do not have to do this deal. They come into the rooms, they drink the coffee, they do the fellowship, and they're just fine. You know, at least it appears to be from the outside.

I really don't know what's going on, but they appear to be just fine. And um I know from my experience I just can't do that. You know, I I have to do I have to do the whole deal.

Um but as a result of that, my life is is different than it's ever been. Um we have a quality of life today that I just wouldn't give up. All the all the stuff we've gone through, all this wreckage that we've done, even in sobriety, um have been learning experiences for me, you know, and and I'm just barely learning how to be an adult, you know.

I'm 46 years old and I'm barely learning how to be an adult. You know, it's amazing. You know, I got grown I got a grown child, my third marriage, and I'm finally learning how to have a relationship.

You know, my wife's my best friend. 5 years ago, I couldn't have told you that. My wife is not my best friend.

Come on, guys. You know, she would say that to me. I couldn't say that to her because it wasn't the truth.

Cuz I didn't I didn't I didn't know how to have a relationship with a woman, you know? I mean, a real relationship, you know, and and it appears to be attractive to other people. I had I think it was about 3 years ago when my my first ex-wife called and um and we got through a lot of wreckage together.

A lot of wreckage. In fact, you know, I was sober for for some time and um she'd come over and she she just she broke into our house one time and you know, we had to call the cops and everything. I mean, there's all there was all kinds of wreckage, you know, and and and it wasn't always one side.

And I don't want to make it appear like it was all her cuz it wasn't. You know, in fact, when I when I got sober the first time I made those amends, um I had made that list. I'd done my eight step.

My sponsor told me what to do. And then I thought I just kick back for a while cuz I done a lot of work. You know, I didn't really have to like go make amends or anything.

And about the third time he asked me, you know, like 2 weeks after I did the list, you know, about the third time he asked me if I made any of those amends, I go, "Nope, nope." You know, I'm still think I'm praying on it. I'm praying I'm praying for the willingness, you know, and um He said, "Well, who's at the top of the list?" And I said, "You know, the first ex-wife." He goes, "Okay, I want you to go over there today and make amends." And it's like, and and I did, you know, I was the kind of guy I just did what my sponsor told me to. I didn't like it.

I didn't want to do it, but I did it. Um because I didn't want to die drunk, you know, and and and even early on, I didn't really believe that it was going to work for me, but I saw it working for him. And then after a period of time, I saw it working for me, so I just continued to do it.

Um, but the first amends I made was to her and and I would have told you it was an amends. I went over and I knocked on the door and she was living in this apartment probably half mile away or something from where we live and um, you know, probably 2 days before I cussed her out on the phone. You know, we had this screaming match.

But here I am knocking on the door and and she opened the door and said, "What do you want?" And and I started I have no idea what I was saying. I really don't who I mean who knows what I was saying. Um, in my mind I was making some kind of amends though.

And uh, she looked at me and she got this look on her face and she goes, "This is one of those effing steps, isn't it?" And I go I go, "Yep." She slammed the door, you know, and um, cuz she knew about the program, you know, and and and in my mind, I that was that was the amend that was the ninestep amends to her. And and the relationship didn't change. There was a lot of yelling and screaming.

And over the years over the years, I tried to attempted to make amends. numerous times, but I don't think my heart was really in it. I hadn't really surrendered.

I hadn't really seen fully my part. Um, and in my mind, it was just, you know, she had done all this other stuff. So, even though I'm attempting to make some amends, she really owes me, you know, uh, some amends, too.

And about three about 3 years ago, um she called us up and and uh and she had, you know, she had some sound in her voice and and she said she needed help and what we were doing over this period of years was attractive to her. you know, we were living this program and she said she needed help and and she had a problem with with alcohol and drugs and you know, what would we suggest to do and and and she had an option to go into this treatment center at the uh the Navy was putting on we were both uh we had both spent some time in the service so she had that option to do that and um and I said that sounds like a good idea. Sounds like a good idea.

I think you should probably do that. Um and and and we'll do whatever we can. you know, you'd let me know if there's anything we need to do.

And and so for the whole time she was in that treatment place up there, uh we'd go up there every Wednesday night and sometimes Caitlyn went with me, sometimes um I went with a buddy of mine and and we go up there on Wednesday night where they had an open AA meeting and and to be supportive for her, you know, and um and when she got out of there, she went to a sober living and I'd go and pick her up just about every Sunday and take her to church with us and we'd go out to eat and and I paid the bill afterwards, you know, and and we'd listen to her stuff and And I think she was sober about um I don't know somewhere between 6 and 9 months. She was in this recovery home. And I I picked I picked her up to take her to take her to this church we were going to.

And uh and she said, "You know, I see you carrying that book and I was actually I was reading that book last week and I think there might be some things you need to say to me in there, you know, and um and I knew what she was talking about. she was talking about. She wanted me to make amends to her, you know, and my ego went right up, you know, I didn't say anything at the time.

My ego went right up and it's like, I've already made amends to you. I've already tried over the years. In fact, um before she got sober, about 2 years before she got sober, I remember my daughter was living my daughter was with us and and she was 15 and and we had told her that uh she needed to get her homework done and instead she went to her friend's house cuz they were going to go to the movies and and so I went over to the friend's house to pick her up cuz I had found out that that's what she did.

She, you know, not ran away, but I mean she went over to her friend's house cuz she decided it was more important to go to the movies and uh and she had called her mom cuz she knew I was coming over there. And so her mom met meets me in the parking lot. She sc this this complex this neither one of us even lived in.

You know, she like screamed at the top of her lungs, you this, you that, you ruined my life for 18 years, blahy blahy blahy. And um so in my mind right away, I was like, well, I'm not making amends to you, you know, and uh but I heard what she said, you know, I heard what she said and I took that under consideration. I talked to my sponsor about it.

I talked to my wife about it. Um talked to a lot of people about it. And and once again, probably half the people in the room's alcoholics anonymous reinforce what my ego told me.

You don't you don't owe her any amends. You took care of the daughter and you did all this and you you you you. And um and my sponsor said something.

He said um he said, "Well, I I can't tell you what to do or what not to do. What do you think you need to do? It's probably between you and God, you know." And I prayed on it and uh and the truth was I never really made amends.

you know, I had made these attempts. I made these half-hearted attempts and and so uh and so I went and picked her up the next week and and decided I was going to make amends to her. And before I I'd never been alone in the in the car with her.

Um because my wife, we just don't do that. I don't get in the car with with another woman or anything. So I always had my son with me or or all all of us sometimes suck in the car, you know.

But um uh this time I went and picked her up alone and and as we were going to church, you know, I I I made amends to her and what I did was pretty much right out of the book, you know. Um and I didn't want to do it, but I knew it was the right thing to do. I brought up everything that I remembered.

These are the things that I did wrong. And then I asked her when I got done, I said, "Um, is there anything else you need to tell me? Is there any other way that I've hurt you that you need to tell me?

is is there anything else that that you need to ask me or tell me um to where we can amend this? And you know, it just totally blew me away cuz my thought here's what she's going to want. She's going to want money.

It's an ex-wife. She's going to want money, of course. You know, and um and and and she's going to want stuff probably and she's going to, you know, I mean, I had all these fears and and and she wanted none of that.

And in fact, all the stuff that I had brought up, she told me that most of that stuff, she knew that's the way I was, you know, and that's not what bothered her, you know. She goes, "Uh, but these things that you said, you know, and and the things that your mom had said to me, and you know, do you still think I'm a bad mother?" And and stuff that to me was just inconsequential stuff, you know, that's what had hurt her, you know, and what she wanted, all she wanted me to do is treat her with respect. that's all she wanted to do, you know, and um and and that started a whole new shift in our relationship.

It's not like we're best friends, but we actually talk on the phone, you know, and for a period of time, she would call and she would talk to me about stuff, you know, and um and what I got out of that more than anything is I saw see I've heard for years in the program that the amends are for me. I make the amends so I feel better, you know, and my my perception on that is maybe maybe some, but I think I need to make the amends because if I don't make the amends, the other person can't get better. The other person's holding on to resentments just like the alcoholic.

you know, she was holding she was and she wasn't, you know, she's holding on to these resentments and no matter what until I made the amends, she had no opportunity to get any better, you know, cuz I wasn't I wasn't giving it to her, you know, and when when I made the amends to her, all of a sudden, she saw that I knew my part and that I was willing to amend my behavior and to throw some apologies out there, too, that need to be thrown out there. Um but basically I'm in the behavior and all of a sudden she she she could forgive me you know and um you know it's an amazing thing but it's only because I did it pretty much exactly like what this book talks about you know you know I work with a lot of guys and and just my experience the only ones that really get better are the ones that are willing to do the deal you know half measures of els nothing you know there's a line in the book that talks about if you're seriously alcoholic as we were, we believe there's no middle of the road solution. And see, I really want middle of the road solution.

That's what I really crave cuz I'm lazy. I want things given to me. I don't want to work for anything.

I just want to feel good all the time, you know. Um, but what I found is I just can't do that, you know. In fact, I hear in meetings all the time that this is this is just a gift, you know.

You just come to sobriety and sobriety is a gift to you. And and that's not what Bill says in his story. In fact, Bill says a price has to be paid.

It meant the destruction of self-centerness. It means we must turn to to the father of light in all things. And um that's what I found that I've had to do.

You know, I've had to do the best I can to to destroy the self-centerness that ran my life. You know, as a result of of being what most people would consider a book thump or I've heard all the I've heard all the things. You're a Nazi, you're this, you're that.

You know, I don't even I don't even care anymore. You call me whatever you want. All I know is as a result of doing this, I got a good life, you know, and um and I'm going to carry the truth as I know it.

And if your truth's different, your truth's different. But, you know, early early on, like I said, they have it all down in a history. You don't have to believe me.

You can get the books and you can read it yourself. The the recovery rate was way different than what it is today. Way different, you know.

Um and and they weren't all lower bottom drunks either. I mean, there was a lot of low bottom drunks. Um but they had them do specific things.

In fact, in Acron in in the early 40s before it was um even really called Alcoholics Anonymous, uh and you can read it in not God, which is it's not a a publication, but the history of Alcoholics Anonymous by a guy named Ernest Curtson. It's a real good book. It's sort of dry, but it's a it's a good book if you like the A history.

And uh they used to call this the take it or leave it club cuz here's what would happen. Somebody would come to Alcoholics Anonymous and the members would say this is the way we do things. And if you tried bacan, well, take it or leave it.

This is this is the way we do things, you know, and if you don't want to do them, that's okay. You know, go back where you came from. And uh and that's not politically correct today.

Um but, you know, I've never really been politically correct anyway. So, it just doesn't matter to me that much, you know. And like I said at the beginning, I want everybody to like me, but I just know it's not going to happen.

You know, I I had a sponsor and I had a couple in a row that they cared more for me than what I thought of them. They cared more for me to carry the message to me even though I'm way bigger than them. I was sort of this angry guy, you know, and um even though I didn't think so, you know, they thought I was pretty angry.

And uh you know, they just they just knew that if they didn't carry the message to me and if I didn't do this deal that I was not going to get any better. And in fact, there was one guy who was uh he told me he wasn't even really concerned for me. He was concerned for her, you know.

He said, "I don't you know, you're probably going to stay sober." That's what he told me. "You're going to stay sober, but if you don't get better, you're not going to have a life with her, you know, and you're going to drag her down, too." And um so I do things a certain way. And uh and the truth is it's not that hard when I just don't think when I just act you know I get up in the morning and I have certain readings that I do some A approved books some non AA approved books and uh and I try to meditate I try to do this quiet time that you know in the early time of AA they they used to use that term quiet time a lot um and they thought that was more important than going to meetings for some reason you know it's crazy I know um but uh and the truth is I I didn't do that for a long time in sobriety cuz I would try to meditate and I would sit there and close my eyes and then all these thoughts would rush into my head, you know, like the chatter of a thousand monkeys.

And that told me, Mike, you just can't meditate. It's just not for you, you know. Well, it's like anything else.

You need to work at it, you know. That's what I found. So, so that's what I do.

And I'm not good at it, but I do it, you know, and I do it on a regular basis. And then I go about my day trying to be the best member alcoholic synonymous, trying to be the best husband, trying to be the best father that I could be at that day, you know, and ask for guidance throughout the day. I go to meetings every day.

And um it's amazing to me when I go to meetings how easy it is to get out of myself. And that's one of the that's one of the blessings of meetings. Whether I think it's a good meeting or a bad meeting, whether I think the a message is carried or not, I'm out of myself for like an hour, an hour and a half, depending on the meeting, you know, I'm listening to all your stuff, you know.

Um, the only problem with the uh with the drama meetings is, you know, if there's no real message for me when I leave there, my stuff comes all back, you know, as soon as I walk out that door. Um, so I tell you, I love Alcoholics Anonymous and I love the people that love Alcoholics Anonymous. And I can tell if you love Alcoholics Anonymous or not.

You know, most of the people that I know what it's like today is way different than what it was like before. And some people might not think it's better. We were talking about acquaintance of ours on the way up here and he's got 30 years of sobriety and I don't know if he's ever really held a real job.

And you know, and I mean, you know, he's he's got all this stuff going on that's totally different than what we going on, but he's sober and he's helping other guys and he's carrying the message and he seems pretty content, you know. And my opinion is that if you're content with what you're doing, if you're truly content, and not just acting, if you're truly content with what you're doing, that's what you're supposed to be doing, you know. And today, I'm pretty content with what I'm doing, you know.

And it's not that everything's perfect cuz in my mind I'd have, you know, like five or six things different, you know, but um my sponsor tells me that uh you know, God doesn't really care what I think. And uh if I had my way, I'd be drunk. So just keep doing what I'm doing.

And and and so that's what I do. You know, if you're new or relatively new, a whole new life's waiting for you. A whole new life's waiting for you.

And it's just a matter of are you willing to do it or not? You know, every single step along the way, your ego is going to say, "I don't need to do that or I don't need to do the whole thing." You know, like I said, we're talking about the eighth step today. It says that word all twice.

Twice in the same step. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make a minister them all. My experience is most people are not willing to do that, you know, and so they don't get the benefits because the benefits is permanent sobriety and continues life.

That's what Bill talks about in the 12 and 12. And and since August 17th, 1989, I had permanent sobriety and I have a content, useful life. And you guys gave it to me.

You guys showed the path for me, you know, and and all I've done is pick up the pick up the trail and and just continue to walk. And and if you're new or relatively new, you can do this. You can have a good life.

You can be content with who you are. No matter who it is, you're enough just the way just the way you are. You're one of God's kids.

And he doesn't love me or anybody else here any more than he loves you. All you got to do is do your part. All you got to do is be willing and it's ready for you.

Thanks. Thank you for listening to Sober Sunrise. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up as it will help share the message.

Until next time, have a great day.