Welcome to Sober Sunrise, a podcast bringing you AA speaker meetings with stories of experience, strength, and hope from around the world. We bring you several new speakers weekly, so be sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help us remain self-supporting, please visit our website at sober-rise.com.

Whether you join us in the morning or at night, there's nothing better than a sober sunrise. We hope that you enjoy today's speaker. It's >> like a spaceship.

Rick alcoholic. >> Now, Dustin asked me to uh do this on roadblocks to recovery and uh he probably is aware that I had a few. You know, there's there's a lot of things that, you know, you could talk uh boy at great length on this one.

This is not a a uh a tough topic. I mean, there's just so much uh you know, some of the some of the things that uh that happened to me early on. I I'll I'll tell you some stories about things that have been my experience and uh and some of the opposite too.

that's happened because of of bumping into some of this stuff. I you know, one of one of the things one of the first things that I I was starting to think about this that I looked at uh and one of the things that happened to me early on was I I got too smart. That's a real easy trap to fall into.

You know, you uh you think you know something. You read the literature, you get smart, and you think that it's I I really thought that's that I was going to learn things and then go out and I would I would give my wisdom to everyone else. See, and and uh so I did a little of that and I can tell you it isn't met with uh a kind response.

Most of the time it pisses people off, to put it mildly, and you end up in conflict with people and you make an ass of yourself. And I did plenty of that. I uh uh you don't learn this until it's usually too late and everybody else has seen it so you've already made a fool of yourself.

But it is a it's a trap. It's an easy trap to fall into and think you know. And you know, one of the things it's interesting because you hear this around the fellowship too about uh uh self-esteem for example, you know, talking about uh uh you know, I heard somebody say from the podium and I and it may it sounds reasonable really at first glance, you know, you if you want self-esteem, do esteemable acts.

That was the idea. And I heard that many years ago from the podium, okay? And you know, it sounds kind of nice, but I I'll tell you, you know what I've learned in AA here is that this isn't about making a better self.

There's a tendency to want to come in here, I think, and make a better self. That's not at all what it is. I think most of us generally maybe never come out of that idea because you hear it all over the meetings.

And you don't have to believe this. I I could be full of crap. I reserve the right to be wrong about everything I'm going to say.

These are just my experiences, okay? But the truth of the matter is what I've learned is that all you re I was esteeming the wrong self. Okay?

It's back to the big shotism stuff. You know, I'm going to be a big shot in AA. I'm going to I'm going to learn all these things and I'm going to bring out my wisdom, my my little pearls in meetings and heal guys that I you know this kind of crap, you know.

But the truth of the matter is what it really is is it's about releasing the self. It's not about building self-esteem at all. In fact, it's the opposite of building self-esteem.

That's exactly what I was doing on the streets. And and I got to tell you that that's that was a very painful experience, you know, to go through is to the realization that uh you really don't know. And it's not an easy place to get to.

Usually comes at on the heels of a good whooping in many areas. And uh it's not pleasant, I got to tell you. So, I I've learned I'm not interested in in building self-esteem.

I'm interested in releasing the self, letting the self go. It's not about addition. It's about subtraction.

It's not about addition. It's about reduction. It, you know, and this is the thing that I with spirituality.

It was the same thing with a block to spiritual growth. I was always trying to figure everything out. I'm going to learn about God.

I'm going to learn about spirituality. I'm going to figure the thing out. I got to tell you, I sat in meetings for months listening to people talk about God.

I was a militant atheist and I could not grasp this idea. I couldn't force myself to believe in what other people believed in. I'd listen to what they said in meetings and I thought, "Well, that's nice for you, but I I can't accept that.

I I I don't see it that way. It wasn't my experience." See? Well, I got to a bottom with that one, too.

Trying to understand God. It doesn't say understand God. It says, "God as we understood him." Now, I looked the words up in the dictionary because I had to do this to see it's been important for me to find out what the words mean.

Now, understand is a concept. It's an idea. Ideas can be accepted or rejected fairly easily.

If you look understood up in the dictionary, it implies something happened. It's past tense. It implies what?

An experience. that something occurred once I started to experience a power greater than myself. I didn't need a concept for God.

In fact, the need for the concept went away. You understand? Here, I'll put it this way.

The problem was solved in my non-necessity to solve the problem. When I no longer cared about figuring it out, I started to have experiences that showed me that there was something helping me. I didn't have to conceptualize it.

I knew it was there. That's where I'm at today. Now, I heard somebody say a while back that the highest form of spirituality is agnostic.

Is being an agnostic. I don't know. In the east, they they got an idea.

They say those who say don't know. Those who know don't say. Okay.

And we get lots of people talking about it. You know, we're going to talk about God. Well, I got to tell you, I don't even know what the heck I'm talking about today.

I don't have a concept of God. I found experiences I couldn't explain away. That's literally what's happened to me here.

You know, there's a uh you know, you know, I remember coming in here and you you don't see it much anymore because we used to put these signs up. There were slogans and things like that. One of them was think think, you see, and then you sit around and I got I've heard it from the podium.

I gota It's sad some of this stuff for me. I It's just the way I feel about it. I got to tell you, I I might not be the norm on this one, but I've I've sat and listened to people say, "Well, my best thinking got me here." Now, there's all kinds of cute little catchphrases around our fellowship.

And you you'll see guys pick them up and then start puking them up in meetings and things like that, you know, because they're kind of cute, you know. There's a slip under every skirt. Now, there's a cute one.

Boy, we give women a lot of power with that, don't we? You know, women don't have that kind of power. I would never say that.

And I used to say things like this. See, but this idea of my best thinking got me here. I gotta tell you, my worst thinking got me here.

Not everything I thought before I came into AA was wrong. Not everything I thought. It's It's absurd.

What are we telling people? Don't think. Then you come into a Well, no.

It was close at the end. It was real close to being everything I thought. Okay.

Near the end. I in all fairness, you know, that's true. But not everything I thought before I got sober was wrong.

And it's arrogant to make these kind of statements to people in my opinion. I hate to give you my opinion. That's great.

Huh? Who really gives a damn about my opinion? But the truth of the matter is I'd come in and I'd sit down and then I' i'd hear people saying, "Don't think." What What are we saying?

I'll do your thinking for you through sponsorship. Oh, that's an interesting idea, isn't it? What are we breeding there?

Dependence. Dependence on people instead of God. See, this is a problem.

This is I think a major problem in our fellowship right now is that we got lots of people who are dependent on each other instead of on a power greater than themselves. And I think this is a a major roadblock if you will or stumbling block for our fellowship. I'd come in listening to people say my best thinking got me here and it becomes cute.

You know people start repeating it in meetings and stuff because they're cute little phrases. you know, then nobody reads the book, so we just listen to each other and then we throw it around, you know. Then I come into the room and I see think, think, think think.

And I'm thinking, well, what the hell is it? Should I think or should I not think? See, this kind of stuff, it's very confusing to newcomers.

I'm sure it was to me. Well, I've come to realize literally that how about if we help a guy learn to think a new way. See, that's helpful.

But to tell somebody not to think is so absurd in my way of thinking today. Okay? And I think it's a it's another one of those roadblocks.

We start saying some of this stuff and repeating it in meetings and you start to believe it. And if you don't actually go through the book and have your own experience, you never know that this what's where the BS is or or or what is and what isn't. What isn't fellowship stuff and what isn't actual AA ideas.

And and I believe me, I've made a lot of mistakes in these areas. I've I've made all the mistakes. I could spot them easily in people today because I've done these things.

I'm a good example of a bad example. That's probably why I'm here tonight in particular. Now, you know, the the thing I I think that has been a a big deal too that we don't hear much about in AA anymore is big shotism.

You know, that you know, read the early history. you'll see that they talked a lot about big shotism about you see these guys when they first came in who wrote the book were were people who were uh lawyers and professional people stock brokers doctors things like that and you know they were big shots in society in a sense okay and they were always you know Bill Wilson wrote extensively about this about his his uh need to achieve you know I got to tell you it's true of me too the same thing happened to me only I didn't achieve the levels of success that those guys probably did. But it really doesn't matter because you can feel that way in your own thoughts.

You know, another cute little idea that people used to say is a uh legend in your own mind. That idea. Yeah.

Well, that's what I was. I remember when I was a Oh god, I must have been in my early 20s. I remember Pam and I had just met.

So, I was probably maybe 25 years old, something like this. And I'd been on this journey for a while. When I got thrown out of high school at 16, I went out to build my empire.

I'm an empire builder. I don't know about you guys. I really am.

I mean, that's the way my mind is. I want to be a big shot. See, always wanted to be a big shot.

You know, there used to be a cartoon about a a character like that. His name was Tutor Turtle. Now, you guys are probably too young to remember.

I don't know if you ever seen this, but he used to be on a show called Rocky and Boinkle. And Tutor never wanted to be a turtle. He always wanted to be a big shot.

He wanted to be something else. See? And he walked on his hind legs and he talked kind of dumb, but he was a cute little guy, you know, and he was he was kind of cool.

And in the cartoons, he would always do this. He would dress up. For example, he wanted to be a general.

I remember I wanted to be president of General Motors. Of course, I don't want the problems that come with it. See, I just want to be a big shot.

Well, that soy tutor turtle was. See, then he would dress up in one of the cartoons I remember very well. Uh, as a general, like in an army general, and he's got a sword and he's got the hat on and stuff, and he goes out and all of a sudden, see, if you're a general, you have to have an army.

And you're going to fight an army. See? And here he is.

He's out there pretending to be a general, and the army starts massing. See, because his mind's creative and he's bringing it about. Same thing with me.

Now the opposition is there and he knows he sees it getting bigger and bigger and bigger and then all of a sudden he'd know he was way over his head and he'd be in trouble. Now this is analogous to me in my life. He'd get in trouble and he would say this.

He'd say, "Help, Mr. Wizard, help." Now Mr. Wizard had a pointed hat and with moon and stars and a robe kind of thing and a long white beard and you'd see this spiral come on the TV set and it go and you'd hear Mr.

wizard's voice and he'd say, "Tristle, trestle, trestle, trone. Time for this one to come home." And he'd pull tutor turtle out of the problem. That's the way I work the program.

When I'm out and you're out in society and in life and you get in trouble, I ask Mr. Wizard to help me. See, that's what I do today.

And I and I mean that sincerely. That literally is what I do. I learned that at a very early age from Tutor Turtle.

But I didn't practice it until I got beaten sufficiently. Okay. So, I remember with Pam, my ex, we were together for 11 years, had a couple of kids.

We're driving around the lake. I'm about 25 years old, and I had this need to be a big shot to to to impress people, you know, buy things you don't need, to impress people you don't like, that sort of thing, you know. So, we're driving around Lake of the Isles and I I'll remember the spot and everything where I was when this when this occurred to me.

And I see we're looking and and and I got this need to impress people. I'm insecure. You know, secure people don't do this.

Insecure people do this. You see the lights on in these big homes and I'm looking at them and I've got this sick feeling inside of me. I want what they got in the worst way.

And I remember the decision was already there but I remember it so clearly today. From that point on the drive was to achieve what they had and I would have done anything to get that and I set out to achieve that to get a big house to impress people. People had come over.

I finally achieved some of this. I got a pretty goodiz house, nice place. And I'd bring people over and I'd show them around the house.

My whole identity was wrapped in what I could get, not who I was. It had nothing to do with who I was. See?

And that's the way I was. And Bill Wilson wrote extensively about this in in the literature about his need to to strive and to be a big shot. This is as true of me as it is of Bill.

There's no question about that. I was striving to be a big shot all my life. And I gotta tell you, this is what destroyed my life.

The booze, you just have to drink because you end up in conflict with people when you're trying to roll over them to get what you want. You end up with problems with people. See, and this is what I did in my relationships.

Pam and I were together. I I'm living I've got a little house. It's a nice place, you know.

It's it's a great starter house, you know, and I got renters upstairs and it's a decent neighborhood and everything and I got to have the house next door because it come up for sale and I So I she doesn't want she isn't interested in this, you know. She she wants to raise a family. We got a kid coming, you know.

Oh no, I got to get this bigger house. So I forced her to move. Now we had lots of arguments and hassles about that, but I pushed the issue.

She This was not her interest. This was my striving to be a big shot. Get that house.

That's not enough. I got to get the next house. So, I got a bigger house.

Nice place. I was always able to bring things to me, but I didn't have the consciousness to to hang on to it. And I keep losing things as time went on.

Okay? I was over my head. I was able to bring big business deals to me, but I could never hang on to the stuff.

It's not that I couldn't acquire it. You know, in in EMTT Fox's book, The Sermon on the Mount, he said, "The only thing worth cultivating is consciousness." That's what he said. You can only have what you have the right of consciousness for.

In fact, you can't not have what you have the right of consciousness for. So, the only thing worth elevating is your consciousness because you won't be able to hang on to what is not of your consciousness, your awareness. Boy, is that true of me.

I I eventually I lost everything that I was seeking to try and hang on to through my big shotism. And I and I I did when I walked into a I had nothing left. I I had, you know, I I I can tell you so simply.

It's it's amazing when I think about this. But I was a thief. I was stealing material things.

I was stealing in relationships, you know, trying to get what I wanted. And I got to tell you, after about 20ome years of taking from life, I got sober because everything I lost everything. I took and took and took until I had nothing left.

You'd think you'd have something, wouldn't you? No. It was all gone.

I heard it all my life. What goes around comes around. Christians say it.

What you sow, you reap. Nice sentiment, right? But it really doesn't play out.

Oh, yes it does. There's no question in my mind today that if I take from life, I'm going to lose. You might have a temporary gain.

I'd steal something and have a temporary gain. And you can do this in sobriety, too. It doesn't matter.

You can start playing this stuff sober, too. You get a temporary gain if you take something or you manipulate something to you. But I'd always lose it.

I'd always I had a bunch of stuff in my dad's garage when I was 18 years old. stolen stuff, outboard motors, the motorcycle stripped, bunch of crap, you know, that I taken. He's out to his AA meeting, comes home that night, the cops are in the garage and they're hauling all my stolen stuff away.

They had a search warrant and they pulled it all out. Now, I thought I gained, but I lost again. That was another thing.

See, the trying to get You can do this in sobriety. It's it's so easy to fall into this crap sober too in different ways but still taking taking in relationships that sort of thing, you know, trying to get what you want. You know, you want to get to know the woman or man who's got a lot of money so they can take care of you.

You're taking or you stay in relationships long after they should have ended because I don't want to be alone or I like the sex. I don't even like her anymore. I only like parts of her.

Anyone? You're a thief. Doesn't make any difference if you're taking I think it's worse to take in relationship than it is to steal people's material things to be honest with you.

Well, I lost it all. I got to tell you, I I you know, they took the stuff away out of my dad's garage. Few years later, I had my own garage and I had stolen a bunch of oxygen and acetylene torches and and not torches, just the uh regulators.

I burglarized a place and I had five sets I was putting together and I was going into the stores and stealing out of their stores, stealing off of taking torch ends and tips until I had five sets put together. Stole the hoses. Stole the the tanks off their docks.

Yeah. Had to buy a couple carts because I couldn't steal them, you know. I would have stolen that, too.

I had f I had five sets of this stuff ready to sell in my garage when I was 30 years old. This happened to me. You know, somebody burglarized my garage and stole all my stolen stuff.

Oh, yeah. Thought I had a temporary gain. Took a lot of chances, you know, but now it's gone again.

You know, I had to look at my life when I got sober. I can see it now. I took and took and took until it was all gone.

So, this plays out in sobriety, too. You know, you can come into AA and still be a taker. Oh, you might do 12step work and stuff like that, but you're in relationships with people and you're trying to manipulate an outcome that's best for you.

Or you don't pay your child support, you know, or you cheat on alimony or something like that. This kind of stuff will kill you here. You think you can take here?

Huh? Go ahead. I you'll know by what you got.

You you'll know by what you got. If you're if I'm in a constant mode of losing, if I'm not getting what I want, I'm probably not giving. You know, I I remember uh sitting in a uh in a room down at the club down 2218 and I was talking to a guy about this sort of thing and he says to me, "Uh, okay, I understand.

You know, you you got to give, okay, but you can give too much." And I said, "Really? What do you mean by that?" He says, "Well, you know, people can take advantage of you if you're always giving. You can't just give all the time.

That's ridiculous." I said, "Really? How can they take advantage of you if you're giving?" He says, "You know, they'll take advantage of your good-naturedness." You know, they they'll look, if you give something to somebody, it's not yours, right? How can somebody take advantage of you unless you stay with the gift?

You give a Christmas gift to somebody, they don't wear it or they take it back or they regift it. Now, there's a problem, right? You see it show up on her sister or something.

You know, does it piss you off? If it does, I assure you it's because you stayed with the gift. That's not the kind of giving we're talking about in AA.

We're talking about giving with no demand. Bill talks about this extensively in the seventh chapter. There's no question about this.

Giving without any demand whatsoever. So, these are things that that I've had to look at that I didn't want to look at that I've had hit I've gotten run up against. You know, you get on the board of a club.

I'll tell you, nothing will show you more clearly that time in the program doesn't mean much. Is get on a board of a club and you will see people with long-term sobriety acting like babies. Okay?

Really, because they want to run everything. They want to tell everybody what to do. There's another pitfall, you know, this telling instead of sharing.

That kind of comes with getting smart. You know, you get too smart. You read the literature and you go and you beat everybody over the head with the book, you know.

Well, it says rigorously honesty in here and then you beat the guy up because he's not being rigorously honest like I was. I was stealing my early six months. My first six months of so sobriety is worse than most people's drunk time with the things.

I'm serious. I'm not proud of that. That's a fact.

It didn't change overnight with me. Some of this stuff has taken been hard one. I'll tell you, I've had some real issues around some things.

So, I've had to be beaten fairly severely in some cases to get my attention. You know, it's uh but uh but I'm coming I'm coming along. And uh you know you know you know in Bill's story he says there's a there's a an interesting writing here.

He says this. Here's what he he had learned from Ebie. He says I was to test my thinking by the new God consciousness within.

Common sense would thus become uncommon sense. Isn't that an interesting idea? Common sense would thus become uncommon sense.

I was to sit quietly when in doubt, asking for direction and strength to meet my problems as he would have me. Never was to I was I to pray for myself except as my requests bore on my usefulness to others. Then only might I expect to receive, but that would be in great measure.

But this common sense became uncommon sense, you know. And he talks about logic, okay, in the text too. You know that, you know, logic has been a real problem for me.

Talk about a roadblock trying to figure everything out. I want to understand everything. You know, I found you don't have to understand things to utilize it.

It's like you walk in a room, flip the light on, you can utilize the electricity. You don't have to understand electricity and wires and bulbs and ballasts and you don't have to understand any of it to utilize it. That's been the same thing that I've found with understanding or having an experience of a power greater than myself.

I I found that again, you know, it's this idea of unlearning, not learning. It's this addition rather than addition. It's subtraction.

I found out if I could subtract what I'm not, what would emerge as what I am. You know, I was always trying to become spiritual. You know, I'll pose in meetings.

I'll sit a certain way. I'll you know, you've seen you know how that goes, don't you? You know, I'm going to be a poser.

See, and you know, act as if sort of thing. Well, I maybe it helps. I maybe it helped me, too.

It probably didn't hurt because I wasn't looking so arrogant anyway, even though I was. But, uh, but I found out what's come to me is I'm already spiritual. And if I can let go of what I'm not, what will emerge as what I am.

You don't have to do something to spir be spiritual. You have to undo. Let go of what's not spiritual and what's emerges as your spirituality.

This happened to me early on and a guy come up to me and I'd been doing inventory and I'd been having a tremendous experience with it. And a guy comes up to me. I'm I'm probably I don't know six, seven months sober or something like that.

And it hasn't changed my atheism, but I'm but it's shaking the foundations. I mean, I'm starting to have experiences that are challenging a lot of things, very fundamental things in my mind. guy comes up to me and he says, "Will you help me spiritually?" I looked at him.

I almost laughed in his face. I'm not kidding you. I I I had enough composure to hold and I thought, "What?

I couldn't believe he said it to me." See, what he saw was my enthusiasm. I was enthusiastic about the program. You know the word enthusiasm apparently from what I understand comes from the root word uh in Greek enthusiasm means filled with the gods.

Okay. Now the problem another roadblock here. Here's another problem point.

You can have great enthusiasm and no awareness of how it affects others. You know what I mean? You can be out there with all your helpingness and be a big pain to where people wish you'd disappear because you're trying to ram it down their throat.

See, that's a guy with lots of enthusiasm and very little awareness of how it affects other people. So really, what's important here is to to get awareness, to cultivate consciousness, I guess, would be another way of saying it. And and that's been a that's been a problem point you know uh um you know there's so much there's just so much uh you know this thing with sponsorship too I mean this this reliance on people this teaching dependency uh on on oursel you know as a sponsor sort of thing you know one of the things that that has probably been a great help for Dustin I know with me is that I'm sure he just got fed up with me in some respects and and we'd fight about things.

I'm telling you, don't ever just sit there and take what your sponsor says. Argue with him. Do your own thinking for Christ's sakes.

Don't be a lamb and follow him around like a puppy. That's absurd. That's absurd.

At least Dustin had enough sense to challenge things. Now, he might have been wrong. Okay.

But it's better he finds out on his own. >> It is. And I mean that sincerely.

It's so important. My sponsor, I always fight with them. I don't take, you know, well, if you knew my sponsor, you'd understand, but some of you might.

But the point is, challenge challenge the thinking. I I think it's a mistake to go along like a lamb and just agree with everything the guy says. I could be full of crap as a sponsor and have been frequently in my life.

I mean, I have for Christ's sakes. To think you're not is crazy. But I but I think it's really an important idea and I I really feel that way is to uh to challenge and and talk about things.

You might be wrong. So what if your challenge is coming from an old way of thinking or an old idea and you just didn't understand so what so what you learn that way that's the way you learn and and just to to to go along with what your sponsor is saying is literally uh you may be living under his illusions then do you really want to wake up you know I first of all I think it's a mistake to get caught with your sponsor's crap you want to go beyond your teachers you don't want to get caught with what your teacher your nose. That's too small.

It's human again. See, I I I just I think these are things that are, you know, if you're when you're in sponsor, you got to kind of kick a guy out of the nest after a while, you know, so he can so he can learn his own lessons, you know, because he won't learn them if he's sitting there with you, you know, he'll depend on you. I got I hear this all the time in meetings.

I got to call my sponsor to find out, you know, I I tell you something story that happened to me just a few years ago. I was talking to a guy who speaks nationally and and he was talking at the podium and um and a couple of guys in the meeting, he was saying a couple of things that just he he was just coming off arrogantly and he didn't know it. He wasn't aware of it and and I talked to him after I pulled him aside later.

I went up and I talked to him and I told him I said, "You know, about three three different people around me, a couple of them saying things under their breath as they left about the way you had said a couple of things." And I just went up to tell him what I what my experience was. And I didn't do this in front of people or anything like that, but I wanted him to understand what it sounded like. See, I he I says, you know, why don't you just listen to the talk?

He says, "My sponsor won't let me. This guy's 16, 18 years sober. His sponsor won't let him." I And I I looked at I said, "You got You're kidding me." He said, "No.

Boy, I'll tell you, if you want to learn about yourself, listen to yourself. You will hear amazingly stupid things come out of your mouth if you learn to listen to yourself. But conversely too, one time I was down at 2218 and I was talking to a guy.

He was new. He was sitting there and he was in trouble and nobody else was in the place. And we were in the coffee area and I sat down at the table with him.

I started talking to him and I got to tell you, I had an experience. I was probably maybe three years sober when this happened to me. I heard myself say something to him that I didn't understand until I said it.

And I thought to myself when I heard it, I thought, "Wow, that sounds pretty good. I got to remember that." I really did. That's what I thought.

And then I thought, "Well, who the hell said it if I didn't understand it until I heard it come out of my mouth?" You know what I realized that day? that if you can learn to listen to yourself, it did not impress the guy I was talking to. It had an impression on me.

That message was for me and it came out of my mouth. Isn't that amazing? That's another thing.

People don't listen to themselves. They won't listen to a talk they may have given. If you ever get recorded, listen to your talk and you'll be astonished.

It'll change you. You'll say, "My god, I'm saying things I don't even realize I'm saying because I'm unaware." See, it's it's an interesting experience. Uh I was in front of a group of about 35 people one time and I heard I'd been telling this story many times, you know, me I bet you I did 50 talks prior to this and it was part of my story and this was the 51st time approximately and I I was listening to myself.

I was practicing listening to myself and I heard myself say something in the story and I thought and it caught me. I mean I was shocked by this. I went that's not even true.

Now I'm in front of a group and I just and I thought should I tell them? But I was too embarrassed. I I it embarrassed me.

I got caught. My ego wouldn't let me tell. See, if id have told them that I just woke up and realized I'm full of crap, what I just told you isn't true.

If I'd have said it, it would have been the highlight of the talk. Would have been the best part of the talk. I probably one of the best talks I ever gave.

You know, ain't that something? I never told that story that way again. Never.

Because it simply wasn't true because I had been practicing listening to myself. See, it's really important to listen to yourself when you're talking and because so you can hear what you're saying. And it really helps if you can get recorded because then you can get a dose of it and and you'll be astonished.

I mean that sincerely. If you're not aware of what you're saying, it's it's really important to become aware because you might hear something that the messages for you like I like happened to me with that guy at that table that day. That changed me.

My god, that that sounds pretty good. I got to remember it. Isn't that something?

And it was it was the message was absolutely for me. There was no question about it. That had an impact on me.

So those there's some things uh uh now there's a couple of things that that I think are really important. up, you know, in uh the the chapter the family afterwards, chapter nine. You know, I got to tell you, uh this this part of the book really impacted me in my early journey here and the ideas that I'm sharing with you are a lot of these things happened to me real early and as time has gone on, they've they've sort of become concrete in my my way of living and and dealing with things.

But, you know, uh they talk a lot about how to deal with family problems and and there's a couple of things that they say here. One of the things, uh, this kind of funny. I I've known this.

Many alcoholics are enthusiasts. Go figure, huh? They run to extremes.

At the beginning of recovery, a man will take, as a rule, one of two directions. And it's true. You see this all the time in the pro in the fellowship.

He may either plunge into a frantic attempt to get on his feet in business or he may be so enthralled by his new life that he talks or thinks of little else. In either case, certain family problems will arise with these. We have had we have had experience galore.

We think it dangerous if he rushes headlong at his economic problem. The family will be affected also pleasantly at first as they feel their money troubles are about to be solved, then not so pleasantly as they find themselves neglected. See, he says it in a number of different ways uh along the way here of putting money first.

I see this talk about a roadblock. My god. And it's a common one.

You see it all the time where a guy uh again will put the money instead of spiritual growth. You can only hang on to what you've got the right a consciousness for. If you don't grow spiritually, you won't be able to have anything because you're coming from a place of lack all the time rather than a place of abundance.

You can only have what you believe about yourself. And it's interesting how that plays out. Uh says the head of the house ought to remember that he is mainly to blame for what befell his home.

He can scarcely square the account in his lifetime. But he must see the danger of overconentration on financial success. Although financial recovery is on the way for many of us, we found we could not place money first.

For us, material well-being always followed spiritual progress. It never preceded. I don't know how much clearer that can be.

A lot of us don't hear that. I I'll tell you what happened to me. I And it's not because I heard that and I knew that and I came in and I I didn't try and build my empire and but I but I got to tell you something.

I got beaten so severely on the streets with trying to be a big shot. I lost everything. And I got to tell you, it was it was like somebody was pulling my arms and legs off.

I was absolutely distraught. I had all this loss when I came in. I'd lost the house we were living in.

I had 50 grand in equity in this one property gone in a foreclosure. I had lost my business and I had to auction that off and that was that was going to bail out the house and that was a nightmare deal. Antique plumbing fixture store and I'd been moving that around town and causing problems for everybody I came in contact with.

It was just a nightmare. I had lost uh Pam took the kids and left. I mean, I lost my children, four and six years old, two boys, gone, couldn't get her back.

I I'm not one of those success stories like we like to hear. You know, the guy loses everything, you know, the the rags to riches story. You know, he goes from having a lot and going into having nothing, gets his butt kicked, and then builds his empire and gets his family back again.

That's not my story. that didn't happen to me, you know, and and a lot of people who come into AA today don't have the families left. You know, there's a few you don't see a lot of it.

I I God, I'm grateful that some of us are putting it back together, but the big book is very adamant about that sort of thing about about sitting down with the families and and you know, that's the way we used to sponsor guys. You know, a guy had come in, we didn't just leave his family outside of it. We'd sit and talk to the wife and tell her what's going to come of this if he stays sober and what she can do.

And we never left the the the spouses out of it. I I don't have a lot of that in the last few years because I don't run into much of it anymore. You know, most of the guys are single or they've done so much destruction that it's long gone.

But, you know, they talk a lot about this sort of thing. And, you know, I I sponsored a guy named Michael and Michael uh was sober 11 years. and uh he became started building uh his empire in AA.

He he was big into the service structure. Became a DCM, you know, then became uh stand he was alternate delegate to New York, you know, Southern Area Assembly, you know, all he was just he was becoming a big shot in AA. See, and it was killing him.

And he's building resentments as he's going along. See, and I knew him when he first got sober. I know his wife very well.

Well, he he got uh he he got all bent out of shape and left AA walked away. He was standing for delegate to New York and he just walked away from the whole thing. He got drunk.

10 months into it, 10 months, he was drinking. He lost everything that he had gained in that 11 years of sobriety. Now I'm dealing with his wife because I know her and I know the kids and we're sitting in his living room and I'm trying to sponsor this guy and he's trying to get back.

I got to tell you, he struggled for a year and a half and never did get back. He couldn't get sober again. He died high.

Now, he did make some progress because I was sponsoring him along the way and I know he made some progress with his wife and with those relationships, but he had some things from his childhood that were just eating his lunch that he never got past. But he did make peace with his wife. They had gotten divorced and he was back living with her and they were making some progress.

Then he'd drink or he'd go off and take some drugs or something. Well, he ends up dead. See?

Ends up dead from this thing. But, you know, again, it was this this boy, I'll tell you, this big shot stuff will just destroy you in sobriety. And uh um I've seen a lot of that over the years too.

And and I you know I one of the things that I've learned to do is to school myself uh into realizing like when you're going out and doing 12step work to to school yourself into the the idea that you're really helping yourself. I mean you're not going to say that to them, but you're really doing it because you're helping yourself. There's nothing noble about doing 12step work.

You just found a way to help yourself instead of hurt yourself. That's all. But uh uh I I remember with Michael, the head of the house ought to remember that he is mainly to blame for what befell his home.

He can scarcely square the account in his lifetime. You know, I remember him saying to me one time uh when we were talking about the way his wife was acting toward him. Now he's sober again, see for a period of time.

and and uh he was probably eight nine months sober and he says, "You know, she's treating me really poorly." He says, "She should know better. She's been an Alanon for 13 years. She should know better." Isn't that something?

He's willing to put it on her, but he doesn't want to look at what he did. See, but he's willing to put it on her that she should be different. I said, "She's been a human being for 40ome years.

Why don't you give her a break? You know, think it's easy to watch somebody on the other side killing themselves and then they're taking you down and they're losing their house again and they're losing their their family. He's got nowhere.

It becomes a nightmare again. See, but he had trouble understanding. He couldn't see it.

He was blocked to that idea. She should know better. Well, maybe I should know better.

That's the thing, you know. I uh uh you know, the the the money thing. Um, you know, one of the things that happened to me that the benefit I started doing a lot of 12step work early on and there came a time when uh I I was I was just selling things off.

I had surrounded myself with material things when I was using and I had some of that stuff left. I didn't have the house and the business and the big stuff, but I had a lot of little material things that I had stored in garages and crap like that. and I sold things off.

I literally didn't have to work for about three years, two two and a half years, three years, something like that. I had an old Harley-Davidson that I had restored. It had a side car and everything.

It was all restored. I sold that and and I lived off that money and I was living very inexpensively in my early recovery. I had some opportunities to live in a place for six months that I I didn't have to pay rent on because I had done some work on it before I went into a treatment center and got sober.

So, I had some things like that, but I couldn't get my family back. So, I was focused on trying to grow, trying to grow whatever it meant to get out of my depression. You know, I was very depressed.

And I found if I could try and help other people that I felt better. It's it wasn't any noble gesture. It was pure self-interest.

It wasn't selfish because it wasn't without concern for others. But, I was I was very aware that I felt better when I did it. So, I'm doing a lot of that sort of thing.

See, now I'm getting broke. The money is starting to go and I'm volunteering. I'm doing a lot of volunteer work.

I I do a meeting at the mission every Tuesday. So, I I don't I can't work on Tuesdays. It's in the middle of the afternoon and I'm going to school for half a day on Monday and I'd been going to school for a while, but I I had taken a number of classes now.

I just had one class and I'm volunteering at the intergroup office. And uh we had a bit of a uh problem at the intergroup office back in the around 1990 in Minneapolis where uh the director got had some problems and it wasn't you know well it's hard to say what all went on there but but uh I was volunteering there and she used to confide in me and talk to me and uh she got pushed out of there under some really ugly circumstances and it was just a bad scene and uh the acting director was this Alanon who used to work in the office just as clerical stuff and she was not drunk and she was acting director all of a sudden because the other one got thrown out. Now I'm volunteering there and she comes up to me and she says, you know, and this is this is to illustrate something about money, this need to to go out and find jobs and push at things and make things happen.

I'm I'm getting broke and I'm running out of money and I my I got to pay my child support. I'm not paying a lot, but I I've got to pay it. See?

And the woman comes to me, Becky. She says, "There's a job opening up here at the intergroup office." She says, "But uh we're looking for somebody full-time, but it only pays four bucks an hour." >> Well, believe me, this is 20 years ago. I mean, 18, 19 years ago, it was four bucks an hour looked a lot worse back then than it does or today.

But back then, it really looked bad, too. You know, it just it didn't wasn't enough to live on, I can guarantee you. So, four bucks an hour.

How can I live on that? I can't pay my child support. I can't All these reasons why I shouldn't take that job.

See, full-time. So, I says, "Okay, Becky, I tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to put I can't work Tuesday because I go to the mission.

I won't give that up. And I and I can't work Monday morning because I go to school. So, I I got to have half a day there.

And I'm really not all that thrilled about Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. I'm afraid to go to work is what it really is. I haven't worked for a long time.

And I haven't worked for anybody else. you know, I've been self-employed. You know, you have to become self-employed when you're like me.

Nobody will hire you, you know. So, I put it in with all these conditions. And Becky comes, she calls me up a few days later.

She says, "Rick, I got great news for you. You got the job." I thought, "Oh, God. Four bucks an hour." She says, "I got you the hours you wanted." Wow.

I didn't have to give anything up for this. She says, "And by the way, I got you five instead of four bucks an hour. I got a raise before I started the job.

I didn't even have to look for the job. The job came to me. But you know what?

I was out putting on meetings and doing 12step work and I wasn't paying attention to any of that. And you know what? I took that job and it wasn't enough to live on at first.

Okay? Certainly at four it wasn't. Five was a little better.

We got a new director three months later. She come in, gave me another dollar an hour raise. Another three months went by, I got another 50 cent an hour raise.

Six to nine months into that job, I was making $2.5 an hour more than what I applied for the job at. I almost doubled my wage. How are you going to predict any of that?

But if you're trying to control circumstances and direct things to go the way you want it, you may be standing right in the way of your good trying to come to you. What if I'd have said I can't take that job. Four bucks ain't enough to pay the rent and everything and it wasn't.

But you know what? As time went on, it be it almost Oh, I got a raise before I started the job first of all. I mean, how's that going to happen?

Who how could you predict any of that? How could you predict another dollar and a half? I'm the integr used to be right across from the wholesale house, the plumbing wholesale house.

I had left plumbing because I couldn't do it anymore and I had had that store for a while. Well, started getting people asking me to do a little job here and there. I had to buy some tools and that sort of thing.

I worked at the inroup office for about 18 months. They cleared the house again. They got rid of my position.

They a lot of people got fired. It was an ugly scene again. I'm packing up my desk.

A guy named Paris calls me up. while I'm packing my desk. He says, "Why don't you meet me for lunch?" I said, "Okay." So, I went and met.

He didn't know any of this was going on. So, I go and meet him for lunch. I've I'm out of the integral bus.

I walk in to lunch. I see he's sitting there with a plumber that taught me how to plum 25 years earlier, 20 years earlier. And I'd forgotten the trades.

And I I didn't, you know, I'd been away from it long enough that I couldn't remember what what the codes were or anything. We sit down and he tells me, he says, "Look, he's got this big mansion. He's an attorney and he's los he's he's in trouble.

He's using and off and on. He's having a hell of a time, but he always wanted me to plumb this place and I told him I couldn't do it. I don't have a license.

Plus, I forgotten the codes and things." He says, "Well, Randy, Ry's going to pull all the permits. We want you to do all the work. Going to pay you $20 cash an hour." I walked out of a $6.50 an hour job into a $20 an hour cash job.

I learned how to plum again. They bought me tools and stuff and got me started again and I got back into the trades. How can you predict any of this?

What if you're trying to direct and force things? You know, I've learned out of this whole thing that one of the greatest roadblocks is trying to control your life and control circumstances and situations. You know, let it be.

Just let things be. And I'll be damned if the money doesn't take care of itself. If jobs don't show up, cars have shown up.

A a woman I smashed my car up when I was new and and I couldn't get a loan. And a a girlfriend of mine calls me and she says, "I just lost my job. I got these two cars and I got this one car.

I don't know what to do with it. I said, "Well, maybe I could buy it from you, but I can't get a loan." She says, "Just give me a hundred bucks a month. You can take it." I couldn't get financing.

I didn't have any credit. The car came to me. I've had so many things like this happen to me.

Why? I don't know. I I go I go to the mission.

I do 12step work. I go to the prison. I just I don't I don't pay any attention to this crap.

Now I'm back plumbing. jobs come to me. I have no idea what's going on.

No idea. My life is like a Cinderella story. I could tell you story upon story upon story of things like this.

Had I been controlling and trying to direct my life and it's not like I never did, but I always got banged up against a wall. And I realized, stop. Quit beating your way through it.

Step back. Something's trying to happen to you. That's better.

So, I quit trying to force women to stay with me in relationships. I've stopped trying to force anything. Don't try and get nothing.

Just give. This has been the great amazement to me because literally I've had tremendous experiences because I wasn't pushing at things. And when you may be pushing at something that's trying to kill you, and you may even get it, and then you got to pray to get rid of it.

That's a problem, too. So, what what really I I think that I'm trying to say here is it's it's what Grizzly Adams taught me many years ago when I was a kid. Remember the mountain guy?

He'd be walking in the field with the bear, right? Gentle Ben the bear. And somebody comes up to him and says, "Hey, Grizzly," meaning the man, "Why don't you tie the bear up?

Aren't you afraid he's going to run away?" And he says, 'If the bear don't want to be here, I don't want to keep them. Can you do that in your relationships? Stop trying to hang on to everything, but just give.

Just just give. You know, people will think when you actually love that you don't care about them, and it's not true. And sometimes it looks that way, but it's not true.

It's all this neediness and trying to hang on is what's been causing me major major problems in my life. When I started to open up away from that, my life got good. It didn't go the way I thought it would.

None of it's gone the way I thought it would. I went to school for two and a half years not to do what I'm doing today. And I'm making more money per hour than I ever would have made had I got a degree in what I was shooting at.

Thank God I haven't gotten what I wanted. Thank God. I mean that very sincerely.

So even in relationships with women and with people, if the spons doesn't want to be there, don't sit there and bang him over the head. Let him go. Let him go drink some more.

You don't have to beat him up to keep him. It's ridiculous. You don't have to beat the woman up to keep her.

It's It's ridiculous. Let go. That's been the great uh amazement to me.

So, thanks for the opportunity to be here tonight. I don't know if that's what you wanted out of me, but that's what you got. So, >> >> Thank you for listening to Sober Sunrise.

If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up as it will help share the message. Until next time, have a great day.