welcome to sober Sunrise a podcast bringing you AA speaker meetings with stories of experience strength and Hope from around the world we bring you several new speakers weekly so be sure to subscribe we hope to always remain an adree podcast so if you’d like to help us remain self-supporting please visit our website at sober-remix than a sober Sunrise we hope that you enjoy today’s speaker okay my name is I think um Mike Shane I’m still alcoholic okay now we’re coming into 8 and 9 10 and 11 and 12 these are my favorite steps um and uh I’ll tell you why it’s where I found God in the ninth step um I think I told you that that I came in here not believing in God looking back on a God is in the details um and quite honestly I had so many chances to see God working in my life all the way through my drinking life all the way up getting sober all the way through but I still doubted that there was this God and um I remember in 8 my sponsor sent me home to review my inventory to find out what harm I had caused all right and I’m a Believer in six and seven and 8 and N that the work is actually in the it’s of six and seven the real work comes in six in 8 and N the real work comes in the eighth step and I got done with this inventory and I take it to my sponsor I fifth step that I’ve gone through six and seven now I put the seal on if I’m really and truly want to change if I’m having a problem making an amend I have a seventh step problem it’s because I do not want to change if I’m holding on to something and I want to keep it up I don’t want to make amends for that do I if I really and truly do not want to be this kind of man that I described earlier on the left side of the page and I really and truly want to move over here to the right side of the page and be this kind of man over here I have no problem making an amend so my first time through the work Frank had me write out my amen’s list now he also went through with it with me on how to make an amend which is at that point in time I would call them I would tell them that I’m an alcohol olic synonymous which I do not do anymore I’m going to tell you about that later I do not use that today CU alcohol is the harms I cause today alcohol plays no part in it and it’s a cop OD as far as I’m concerned to say I’m me an Alcoholics Anonymous and I want to make amends to you now okay so he said here’s how you make an amend you write out the harm after you found it on a 3×5 card and he said the reason he writes him out is because when you make the amend he says I want you to read off the card I said why do you want me to do that he said because your ego is going to want to start making excuses for your behavior so in the middle of the amend all of a sudden I’m going well I lied to you but I was really scared and you know that kind of thing he said that’s no good so he said what you do is you have a card and he said you’re going to take this card into the amend with you face to face is the way you make amends unless it’s absolutely impossible now I heard the biggest croc of crap I’ve ever heard an alcoholic synonymous not too long ago now you may have all heard this maybe I’m slow somebody said that they would make amends except when to do so would injure them were others and they were the others has that been around long long time I I didn’t G yeah I I mean I had never heard that the big book says that we must be hard on ourselves right because we need ego deflation at depth to overcome the disease of alcoholism to a degree that David was reading in the previous steps about deflating the ego at a depth that’s unheard of to most of the world in order to overcome this disease so he had me write out the the harm I found all right and by the time I got out of my fif step I knew what the harms were there was no kidding around about it we picked all that out in the fifth step he said then I want you to write a sentence underneath that that says is there anything I have left out so he said you will make an appointment you will go in and you will tell them why you’re there and then he said you’re going to read to them what you did to them and then you’re going to say is there anything I have left out and I am going to keep my mouth shut and they can say whatever they want to say and I listen into it when they’re done he said what you’re going to do is say is there anything else and if they say no you’re going to say what can I do to set this right now a lot of people would leave you off the hook they’d say oh I’m just glad you showed up you know okay he said no you’re going to know what you’re going to do to make it right and if they don’t tell you what to do you’re going to tell them what you’re going to do now going into amends I go into amends for two reasons one I don’t want to be this man anymore but the second reason that I didn’t even know about until I had completed amend was that I go into a men’s with an unprotected heart I found out I do not have to protect myself I have lived my entire life trying to protect me and if I’m in the middle of an amend God has my back now either this deal really and truly works or it doesn’t Okay so I had all these amends in Denver and as you all know I came from San Francisco to Denver and uh we’re going through and I had all these warrants out for me and what the warrants were for was Salto police officer pimp and pandering bootlegging and something else I can’t even remember he said you’re going to have to make amends for that you’re going to have to turn yourself in but he said we don’t lead with a chin he says let’s get an attorney in in San Francisco to be there to set bail if you can get it and the whole thing and part of my amend story is this I ran these strip clubs in the tender line District to San Francisco well the and in North Beach and the people that owned these was the mob that’s who owned them and I stole from them I would just take 50 100 200 bucks a night out of the till put it in my pocket I was smart enough to figure it all out and so I told Frank about all this and he goes you owe them in amend I said no I don’t I said these people rip anybody off he said it has nothing to do with them he said it has do with you I said Frank if I go and make amense to these people I am I’ll never come back he said yes you will he said either this deal works or it doesn’t he said you cannot stay sober looking over your shoulder you can’t do it you want to get really clean get clean this isn’t about just getting clean from alcohol and drugs this is about getting clean in life to where I can look every single human being that I know in the eye that I don’t walk across the street to avoid a soul there isn’t a town there isn’t any place I can’t go today I’m not afraid to meet anybody right that’s what this program will offer me so what happens is I made all these amends one of the amends that I made was for cuz I’ve been sober about 11 months and my wife had divorced me and I was paying child support but I I made amends to her and I part of the amends for for paying her late and when Frank sponsored me there was a couple of conditions he had for sponsoring me not just working the 12 steps and be becoming a hom group member but he said if you have a kid you’re going to pay your child support and if you have a kid you are going to see your kid on time every single chance you have and you will get a job those were his three other conditions and so I made amends to my ex-wife and part of the amend was to um that I’m sorry for paying you child support late I always paid but you know I I was more important than her obviously so what I did was I would pay on the 15th instead of the first or whatever and she looked at me and I’ll never forget this this was this will show you how sick I was cuz this was eye opening to me she looked at me and she said Mike I don’t like you and she said you don’t like me so why don’t you just pay your child support on the first and we never have to talk to each other again and all of a sudden it clicked do what you say you’re going to do very simple concept do what you say you’re going to do Frank’s definition of honesty is do what you say you’re going to do and say what you do that’s his definition of honesty it’s also mine the reason for that is I don’t live my life behind no curtains no more right I don’t have no agendas going on back here my best friends in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous you want to know why they’re my best friends they don’t have an agenda with me and I have none with them none whatsoever I don’t want nothing from them they don’t want nothing from me so Frank was the kind of guy and Don was saying the same thing and a couple other people were saying the same thing that if this thing really and truly works it’s going to work in the middle of making amends and it’s in the middle of amends I’m going to test this God thing and I go into an amend with an unprotected heart so what I ended up doing was I went into San Francisco and I had a whole bunch of amends to make and I made the easiest ones first and then I was scared to death and I wasn’t going to make amends to the people that own the nightclubs I figured I’d turn myself into the San Francisco Police Department they’re going to arrest me so I ain’t got to worry about making amends to the to the m does that make sense so I contacted this attorney that Frank had gotten me lined up with I told him that I’m coming in to do it and I walked into the precinct station down by the ten line district and it was just sort of like what’s in TV big old desk with desk sergeant standing there I was petrified folks I’m not going to sit here and try to tell you that I had God on my shoulder and I’m going to walk in there and just present myself like the man I really am I was just a total coward I walked in and he looked up at me and he said what do you want and I said uh my name is Mike Shane I’m an alcoholic synonymous and I need make amends I he said what I said uh my name is Mike Shane I’m an alcoholic synonymous and I’m here to make amends because I got some warrants out for me he goes oh no not another one of you guys and I said yeah and they took me upstairs and they took me up and the detectives came in and they left for an hour and they came back how what’s your social and this that and the other thing and they came back like three and a half hours later and I’m prepared to go to jail I really am because I knew I couldn’t live that way I mean from the time I left San Francisco every time I saw a cop I’m like this right and so finally this cop walks in and he goes yeah we got that you’re arrested for all this it was all dropped to disturbing the piece and you’re on a years’s probation what are you doing here I had never done anything with those and I left the police department and I was was so high and so relieved I decided that what I was going to do was call the big boss of the guys that own the the five clubs and I was going to call him at his office and he probably wouldn’t be there and I could tell Frank I tried it was like 2:30 in the afternoon I make I had the number I called he answers the phone who’s this this is tell him he says Mikey we haven’t seen you in a long time come on over say hi now I don’t know if you’ve been up to North Beach in San Francisco I’m sure he has but yes right right next to um vanessie there’s a strip club on the right hand side of the alley and you walk up the big long stairs into this back alley and right up back up there is their office and so I go over there and I walk up and all I can think about is what Frank kept telling me I got to make this amend I got to make this amend I got to make this amend and I can’t be looking over my shoulder and and uh I I was really petrified and I walk in it was just like out of The Sopranos there’s a guy about this big who they come up to you and they go like this hi it’s good to see you how you doing you know cuz they’re checking you right and so uh finally I get in this guy’s name is Gino and he’s everything that you can imagine little short guy with a silk suit and the D pinky ring and he tells me what are you doing and so I’m talking to him and he said you look good you look a lot better than you used to and I had a short haircut and the whole thing and he says what are you doing and I said oh Gino and I said Jesus Christ I didn’t want to tell you this but I’m here to make amends I stole all this money da d da he looked at me he says how much did you steal well now I knew I had made a mistake because see I thought they knew but they didn’t know right and I said youo I don’t know I mean it’s 50 here 100 here at 200 you know I I really don’t know he said what would you say 15 grand 20 grand yeah something like that I said Gino I I promise you I’ll I’ll pay you back you know I’m driving a cab now but I’ll pay you back we’ll set up we’ll set up uh we’ll set up some payment plans actually pritz helped me a lot with that cuz he made amends when he was in prison and he had paid back at like 50 cents a month to some of his creditors and he looked at me and he said Mike people don’t do this to us and I said what steal money he said no come back and tell us and I told him and we sat and talked and I don’t want to be flipping about it um we sat and talked for a period of time and he said look he said we’re going to call it even he said but if I see you drunk back here again I want every penny here’s what I learned in that trip to San Francisco is I face my worst fears to do the right thing either God has my back or he doesn’t I don’t have to protect myself anymore does it mean that I don’t try of course not does it mean that I don’t get scared of course I do but I have to be able to go out in the world knowing that God has my back you know the big book makes some very serious promises these promises are for real and when we get into 1011 I’m going to tell you some things I’ve done in in the 10th step and the 11th step that I’ve seen the real power of this program and what ends up happening is I change my heart gets changed I don’t change because I’m so good at this I change because I’m seeking God I came back from San Francisco just higher than a kite because finally I didn’t have to hide from nothing anymore I was such a paranoid drunk I don’t know if you guys have ever gotten really paranoid um oh that’s right a bunch of junkies in here too I I’m serious when I called AA I Ed my phone call to less than three minutes because I was afraid they traced my phone um you know I was so paranoid but but what the amens process is all about is about not wanting to be that kind of man anymore and do I really trust this process you know and I came back and I told Frank what had happened and he sat in his big desk and you know he was grinning from ear to ear you know and he said I told you so you know but I learned a valuable lesson I don’t avoid amends anymore I don’t like to make them I think it’s the most humbling thing we do in alcoholic synonymous but it’s also the most it gives you an i a sense of reality of what you do in the world I remember going back to somebody making an amend and when I got to the point this girl AED to date and when I got to the point and I said this is what I’ve seen is there anything else that I could you know is there anything I’ve left out she went on for an hour about stuff that I had never even thought of is how it affected her and I sat there and listened and I got a life lesson we don’t really know all the time how we affect other people we have no way of knowing that we’re sometimes so self-centered we think we know we’ve hurt them you know the big book says that we’re sensitive and it takes us a long time to outgrow that serious handicap I think Elks are sensitive only when it comes to themselves I really don’t think Elks are very sensitive when it comes to the people around them cuz we can waylay people with a look right I remember making amends to my daughter after she got a little bit older and we did what the book said we sat down and frankly analyzed the past and I was able to say here’s what I did wrong here and here’s what I did wrong here and here’s what I should have done here and here’s what I should have done there and my daughter and I are like you know we’re like this today you know and that’s gift from God total gift from God so that’s what I have on eight and N is David alcoholic so pretty much what Mike does is the same thing that I do um amazing we all came from the I think that uh part of the uh basic format of going through an amends that I would add because it says it in the book is it it does talk about um telling them you’re sorry and I’ve heard so many times it means that you’re not supposed to tell you’re sorry because they’ve heard it a million times when you were drunk this sorry here where I’m at at Step n is not the same one that I’m at when I’m drunk It’s not the only thing I say but I but it needs to be mentioned I think it’s mentioned in two three two or three different types of the amends that the book presents that we we bring this I’m sorry it’s completely we’re in a completely different place um the other one and it comes the other instruction I was given it’s the very last instruction I was told to to to follow through with on on every amends it comes from the instruction that in the letter that the guy wrote to his wife about alimony and that is asking for forgiveness and that’s really not about me that’s really about giving them an opportunity to get free just as asking them to tell me if there’s anything I left out how that made them feel what I can do to make that right do you forgive me because the truth is is that um this men’s process is moving to me and in my experience to another uh another part of this cycle of forgiveness where these people are are forgiving me whereas I I forgive them in my for step I see that God forgave me in my fist step now I’m giving these people an opportunity uh to forgive me if I’m making the amends I’m free if I’m standing in front of you and I’m and I’m going through the motions I’m free now the instruction about uh in transitioning from 8 to 9 it talks about um cleaning off our side of the street is not an end in itself if all I’m doing when I’m making amends is worry about cleaning off my side of the street I’m coming to you from a selfish position what it says is that that our real purpose is to be fit ourselves to be a maximum service to God and our fellows that means when I’m in front of you put be put in be willing to be put in an opportunity where I can be helpful okay and um where I where I grew up I end up my parent I told you I I moved up to the mountains out of Fresno up in the High Country and in that where I live there’s probably five or six seven Indian reservations that are within a 10 m radius of where we lived and I immediately gravitated to the hanging out on the Indian reservations it’s a whole different world down there and I dug it nobody’s putting on a face down there you know and I didn’t have to put on a face down there I came from hanging around different crowd than that and when I got down there it was just a different thing and it was wild and it’s crazy and and uh and there’s illegal activity going on down there I was a part of and it was much very similar uh to what uh Mike was talking about and having to go make an amends but one of the things about that is that you know um there’s another part of the book talks about we don’t shun our friends just because we don’t drink anymore and if I come back to that community and shunned those guys down in the reservation because I was now sober they literally would have kicked my ass cuz they would have perceived that as I thought I was better than them because I’m not drinking anymore and I didn’t shun them right off the bat I got right in there with them hanging out just not I wasn’t drinking and they respected me not drinking and I respected them still drinking whatever you know but there came a time for an amends and and my sponsor say you’re going have to go make that amends and that’s a whole different ball game I mean it I mean you fight with each other just for fun I mean theyum just shank is as as anything else you know especially on the wrong side of things and so I went down and I this one guy I had to make a mens to we were selling Ragweed and I stole a bunch from them and um it was bad stuff it’s just give you a headache and a cough but we were selling it to the yuppies down in Fresno for 4 an e it’s all profit so but I sold bun and so and uh I went back and made a mince to him and uh it was all fine it was good nothing happened and uh went back to my sponsor and I told him I said hey man I I went down there and I made amends and he goes and they didn’t kill you you know no they didn’t kill me nothing happened he says man I’m going to go make some of those amends I got some still hanging out that are just like that wow I’m the guinea pig here you know but uh it I I plugged I started to plug into um a Native American treatment facility as they had a two meetings a week down down in Fresno and I started seeing these guys filter in in and out of the treatment facility and uh if I wasn’t at least their first Contact in AA I was certainly somebody that I mean in some cases they sponsored some of these guys and and um they’re a very tight Community they’re not going to just ask somebody for help it’s just not even in their culture to ask somebody for help you know and um to be a source for that um on a regular basis of getting them plugged into AA was was was awesome um I uh me and a buddy took off one time for uh Santa Rosa I was 15 16 was 16 he was 15 and and um he ends up getting arrested because he’s driving my car with no license cuz I’m too drunk and too high to drive it myself and when he gets arrested he gets to juvenile hall he gets sent home sent home his dad actually his dad came pick picking him up four hours away from Fresno and and uh I uh I came to in the hotel room cuz the cops didn’t take me they just dropped me off at the hotel room that I was staying in my car got impounded and so I’m so in this drunken stuper I decide that I’m going to take a little Junt through Memory Lane of where play where we used to live when I was 10 to 10 to 13 14 years old I go back to This Old House that uh that that my parents built that we that we lived in I just wanted to see it and uh and I and I’m drunk I’m 16 I can you imagine I look at 16y olds now and I think about man they just look so innocent I can’t imagine I was doing that I was doing sometimes when I look back but anyway um this older lady came out she goes uh what are you doing I said oh just looking at the house my dad built used to live here he oh those your parents yeah she goes you want to come in I’m drunk stinky and slept she I go okay you want to see your room okay and she carred me off in my old room she had a day bed out there and she let me sleep in the bed wow so I thought about that and it obviously came around in a mens and how how just invasive that was and how awkward that must have been and that putting that woman in that position so I come back around this is this is uh 9 years later right so I I go up to Santa Rose and I have a bunch in Santa Rose is a Basel I got to take care of and and that’s just one of them and uh I drive up and um I get out and this lady comes out who’s considerably younger somebody else and she goes can I help you I said oh uh there was there used to be an older couple that lived here and I was just wonder if they still lived here or they around and he go oh no that that was uh that was my husband’s mother we we got the house from them they passed away or something and I said oh all right well I’ll just be on my way and she goes well what what are you here for I and I told her the story and she goes big breath of air she takes in I go does that mean something to you all right she goes my husband’s mother was 30-year allanon when I came walking in that door at 16 she knew exactly what to do that’s wow she said my husband right now is in a treatment facility in Sonoma and he’s going to be out in about 15 days would you be willing to at least talk to him tell them get plugged in into of Alcoholics syon are you kidding me are you kidding me another one I just want to share with you and it has to do with AA when I went through the first steps the first time before that I was sitting in these meetings and these people in the meetings were kept patting me on the oh Dave it’s going to be okay you just go three steps and finally I did and I had a spiritual awakening I was shot out of a cannon and I was on fire and I came back and shared it and then they were throwing cold water on it and I quickly realized that they hadn’t actually done it themselves and I CED an immediate resentment I mean huge resentment and so I it it did two things one it drove me further into the literature not only this literature but the history that you guys have been raffling off I wanted to know everything I wanted to know what else they were lying to me about I was I was getting a general service and I had a service sponsor that was a delegate and he got me into the service manual I mean he he dialed me in I was a walking War Machine about two years so we’re going to a meetings and I was dropping bombs left and right taking and and I I I was trying to get rid of that resentment on them take abusing them literally and that is no way to carry the message of alcoholic synonymous and I will tell you to this day 18 years later that reputation still follows me even though I haven’t done that in in in 15 years it still follows me it affects my home group okay but I did come around and make amends to those groups for behaving that way I mean I would just single you out and I would just call you out I just I mean not not tactful not I me just bear bear down on you condemn the entire group it’s like a chainsaw going through me okay and um I think that most of those groups at some point over the years have come back around and said will you do our big book study and a lot of that ended up getting people coming to our group doing what we do and then they go back into that group and they do some missionary work in there and they lead their own and they’re able to lead their own big book studies right my real purpose in making amends is to fit myself to be maximum service to God and my fellows right the high school that I nearly got kicked out of um I came back around and made a men to and I made a a general letter amends to the school and then I made direct amends to individual teachers that I made in direct harms to and uh one of the teachers I made uh I made had harms to he was the director of the uh the junior senior prom I was never eligible to go to any of that stuff after my freshman year but they were going to I was I a girl that I really dug my senior asked me to go and I told her I couldn’t go and she pretty much knew that and she was going to try and pull some string and see if I could go and so I thought I was going to be able to go it came down I was going to be able to go so this one teacher decided that at the last second the director says no he absolutely cannot come broke my heart right now they’re going to pay okay so I threw a four keger right the he loses something like $5,000 on the on the prom cuz nobody goes everybody is in their prom dresses in txas at my for keger they show up to get pictures and that’s about it right and they’re and they go to the keger so I come back around I got to you know make a mens for that and uh the first thing that was interesting to me he said is that he says I didn’t even know you guys were doing that or you were doing that and I had a bunch of there was a core of us that were all like that and uh that was kind of shocking kind of scary that your teachers don’t even recognize that but um the second thing was is that and I said what can I do to make it right and he said well I teach driver Zed and I also teach Health he said when I get to drunk driving in driver Zed you’re going to come over here and tell your story and when I get to alcoholism and drug addiction in in health class you’re going to come over here and tell the kids your story he said I said how long do I got to do that says well how long were you drunk at my school good one really so so I’m doing on this and it’s all very uh administration’s a little uneasy but they’re going to let it happen and so I I start doing it and um a teacher comes up to me I didn’t know and he says hey I heard you played soccer here and I said yeah I did when I was eligible and uh he says what do you think about coaching I just laughed in his face I said look it’s one thing to come here and do this little Public Service thing I’m doing it’s a whole another ball game to trust kids in my care I you can run that by the dean if you want to probably going to laugh in your face he says well I don’t know why don’t we just look why don’t we why don’t we see I said I said have atct and uh he called me back that night he says you want a coach I said what’ they tell you he said well it wasn’t without a fight but do you want to coach I said sure I’ll coach um now I got to tell you that as a student I was in all the college prep stuff and and I did it all on Jack Daniels mushrooms and and weed and I I came out of the B average okay they couldn’t kick me out for lack of credits or anything like that that was the only thing that was my Saving Grace um but they just hated I was they had the same I was a bad influence on the other students I wasn’t the peer pressured I was the peer presser right the ring leader and so so I get about half halfway into the season and um we’re having a good season we’re undefeated and uh we’re kind of gathering around trying to plan something for the holidays and I’m trying to stay out of it and um one of the uh the parents go uh what do you think about what we should do for Christmas uh get together or whatever I said oh I don’t know I know whatever you guys want to do it’s not really a big thing to me he says and she just flat out said hold on here cuz you have no idea you are a better influence on our kids than half the teachers in their school right out of her mouth I don’t I don’t cry it very much but that almost got me there I know I I have a bunch of sto I can go on all night with man stories but that’s all I have you know I was I was uh thinking about you know when when I went and made those amends big book puts it this way the spiritual life is not a theory it has to be lived and if I willing to live my life based on the principles that I’ve learned in alcoholic synonymous one of the things I’ve come to find out is I don’t have to live my life based on how I feel anymore I can live my life based on the principles I’ve chosen to live my life by which is a whole different deal I get the power to do that but there’s two other things in amends that I really would like to bring up one of them is financial if you have creditors I’m here to tell you creditors this is a secret they just want the money they really don’t want a pound of Flesh they don’t want their cars back I’m in the real estate business I do short sales all day long they don’t want your houses back you know know they just want your money the Internal Revenue Service I owed the Internal Revenue Service a bundle okay because I decided to get honest on my taxes they’ll work with you and you got to pay them back big book says we got to lose our fear of creditors we can’t be scared of them I don’t know about you but back in the day see I did all this before the internet came along all right you couldn’t find people you had to go and look them up and you had to go to the phone company and get phone directories and look them up you didn’t just Google their name and Facebook them and yeah I’m big on Facebook now but uh you know you you had to do that kind of stuff and and uh so I track these people down the other thing I would really like to talk about is the big book does say that we go to people and express our ill feeling now we had a period of time down at York Street and Monday night and at happy way where where people were running around they’d call you up and they’d go I really want to make an amend to you and you’d go out of your way to meet him and then they’d say Mike I I owe you an amend well what four well I really hated your guts you’re just a real thank you I’m so happy you shared that um Bob came to me one time and two guys that had made amends to me went called him he said what are you calling me for they said we want to make amend to you olon said I already know I’m an um I’m going to tell you that I don’t I don’t I don’t make those amends if I’ve caused actual harm there’s a difference between hurt and harm I can hurt your feelings just by not doing what you want me to do I don’t owe you in a meant for that unless I’m intentionally doing it but if I’ve caused you harm then that’s a whole different deal and I’ve got to look at that when I’m looking up a mens you know did I hurt you did I just not do what you wanted or did I actually harm you you know and I don’t make amends for those things but here’s one thing is you really sincerely want to set the record straight with people sincerely the book uses that term I have had people in Alcoholics Anonymous come to me and others and make amends to do the amend so that they can go back to their home group and say I’m I finished all my amends they did not want to set it right with me whatsoever they didn’t want to set it Right with Bob I’ve had Normy people I’ve got a bunch of realtor friends in Colorado I don’t hide that I’m in this thing hell I tell everybody they send me their drunk husbands and wives and stuff like that and I had this I had this uh really close friend of mine she’s actually the G who’s watching my business this weekend and she called me and and she said her sister-in-law who is 9 months sober in AA came and made a mentor and she says she really didn’t want to set anything straight with me she just wanted to make an amend for what was the reason reason behind that so people will pick up on the fact if you really and truly want to set this thing right you know I mean you’ve been around salespeople where you know they’re just after the the dollar they could care less about your welfare well you don’t buy from them so if you’re in there making amends I think it’s a good idea to really I always sit down before I make an amend and I I ask God to give me the sincerity and I will start the am Men by saying to people I sincerely want to set this record straight I really and truly have done some stuff to you and it is it just isn’t right and I need to own it okay so that was just a couple other things that I wanted to bring up about amends is there any questions yeah um what did how old was your daughter when you made amend to her and what did what did that look like like what was that I’ve made I’ll tell you I’ve made amend to my daughter a couple couple of times M uh the first time she was five um the last time the second time that I that we did that she was 25 she was an adult um and what it looked like the first time is she was too young to really take a look at it but she really got the feel that that Dad really cared about her and wanted to be there and then when she was 25 um she learned some some things that had happened that I was blamed for that I didn’t do anything you know and uh it brought us absolutely and totally together I’m going to tell you something I’ve learned with family members you have two shots that’s it first time you go and make an amend to a family member like a wife or brother or whatever they’re really glad you’re there they’re going oh finally yes the second time you go they’re going and after that they don’t want to hear it no more they want you to change your behavior you had your hand up back there yeah knew was a question more days you saying that I’m sorry a little bit deeper into what it’s really nothing much else deeper that it should be said it’s there’s a couple instances examples in the nin step that says that we to say our we’re sorry and I don’t know there’s anything else deeper to go other than it should be part of the it should be a part of the process that to say that but to just leave it as I’m sorry as being enough no that’s not that’s just an apology amends is actually taking the action to make it right but part of the approach the book is pretty clear in several occasions that saying I’m sorry is a part of this process I made some uh amends um when I was like six months sober and I’ve only picked up one white chip but I feel like there’s some things that I left out with some people um I mean you said you only get two shots of making amends with someone I mean if you’ve already made one amends to your parents should you wait a little while to make another one just so you don’t um leave anything off that one you only have two shots I’m saying that the people closes to you you only do really have a couple of shots at them um I would you know I I don’t know I don’t everything in AA is a two-edged sword you know it’s like are you waiting because you know you don’t want to do it or are you really waiting because you think your timing is going to be better you know one of the things that we used to do so much about am menes we’d ask well should I make aend should I do this and do that and both pritz and Frank would say exactly the same thing they’d say you pray about it wait one day and then do what you think’s right great then you’re guided I hope that answered she had her hand up first yeah um so making amends to parents I have a question about that what do you suggest like how far back into childhood does one go when they look at behaviors where’s the line between what we’re responsible for as children and their behaviors proceeding alcoholic drinking but it’s clear that the disease of perception is there like how I feel like maybe I have some amends that I need to make but I’ve had a couple of people advise me that those aren’t my responsibility and then other people that say differently so do you want to answer that or you want me to take it I was just trying to think of one of the things I made amends for to my parents and how like one of the earlier things and uh I think another way to phrase that question is because I’ve had it before too is is like if you’re if you’re 55 years old and you have 45 years of like are you going to sit around for the next four years saying I did a b c d 1 2 3 or that’s not what I that’s not what I heard at all what I heard was it was um if there’s perceived wrongs at a younger AG is at what point do you make the amends and I know that I have made amends to my parents for things when I was younger I just I can’t pinpoint an age I think the basis was if it’s there I make the amends for it I think that’s the really the the basis if it’s there I make the amends for it I don’t I I was more I was more cognitive of what I was up to at a young age than than I want to take responsibility for okay so uh personally I don’t let myself off the hook too much because I know when I was pretty cognitive of what I was up to at certain times with as a child where I was doing this it wasn’t like I didn’t I I couldn’t blame it on being a child right so did that answer your question thank you yes yeah you you know red had his hand up you I’ve got an addition of the big book where they left the word sorry out and uh I’m just joking but I know where it is and I ne I neatly evaded with guys I sponsor because without fail it’s like they they they they latch on to the word sorry and apology and then they come back to me about making amends and they describe the mechanics they went through and completely not what we discussed and what they did went and said I’m sorry and I was every sponsor had refuses to even let me use that word well I understand it’s it’s in the book I just am disturbed right now I I here’s here’s what I don’t get but there’s still more stuff that needs to be followed through with in the amense process and I don’t understand why they’re stopping there I’m not and I didn’t say that either I said it’s part of the process in the in the look I’m too stupid to come up with something like this on my own so I just follow the directions right I’m going to put the book on the Shelf if it’s the book says we say I’m sorry I’m going to say I’m sorry I know that I’m staying it from a completely different place I know I’m a completely different place when I’m saying that than when I came through the door sometime with my Mom saw me or whatever and I’m saying I’m sorry it’s just a completely different person and completely different places but book says it so I do it I don’t question it well I agree with Dave I say it and uh but I’ve also been taught that it’s not about going in just to say I’m sorry right right I mean there’s a whole ton of stuff I got to do besides that and at the very end of it or in the very beginning of it I will usually come up and say I am really sorry for what I did but here is what I did and da da and is there anything I’ve left out and what can I do to make it right so there’s that whole Litany of things that need to be done but I do use the word sorry um this is kind of in reference to her I had surgery one time and uh I got a one bottle of pain fills in the prescription on it said take every 6 hours well I took one every 5 hours I was seriously in pain and I and some people where I come from in AA were saying this and they were saying that so I was kind of like yeah I was just confused as hell so I called Scott and I said I’m taking this pain medicine and I’m taking it every 5 hours and I’m not taking it as prescribed and he says well he asked me something and I said yeah I was in damn pain and he said well how do you feel about I said I feel fine about it and he said okay cuz I thought I was going to have to come and get a white ship I mean my my my point is Scott always kind of put things back on me and ask me how I felt about it because he he’s always told me that I know deep down inside what I need to do you see what I’m saying and I didn’t feel like I need to figure I was in damn pain and when that medicine was gone I didn’t go get any more pain medicine I took adill after that and but my point is is that I know deep down like I I can does that make sense to y’all yeah okay that’s one of the things actually I haven’t really done one of these where I refer to Frank as much as I have lately but I sort of miss him a lot lately um is he always said the same thing he’d say deep down you know what’s right it’s just whether or not you want to do it right you know I went to him over this marriage I was in and it was it was getting bad and I said I don’t know whether to leave I don’t know what you know we were in counseling we tried this we tried that and he says you know what to do and I stuck it out for another 6 months you know just it was just ice cold brutality kind of thing going no nobody was talking to anybody that’s all that was really going on but um you know I knew like a year before that that I should have gotten out you know and he just used to say you know what to do you know God’s going to give you the answer um so I made an amend that CU I’ve always heard what talk was saying but I also understand where you’re coming from um and I think today where I’m at today if I want to make an approach with someone um it would definitely be coming from a different spot um the approaches I made at 6 months separated on step nine um you know 6 months prior that my mom was hearing I’m sorry or a year before that she was hearing I’m sorry etc etc and every my life was hearing that and so when I work with with the guys that I work with I I I do give that suggestion of you know to to leave that out because you know 6 months separated sitting down in front of someone saying I’m sorry again when they just heard that really my my mom didn’t want to hear that honestly you know um and and I have no idea what that experience would look like if I were to approach them in that way um and just you know give them an honest like you know along with me owning what I’ve done to you I’m also sorry and you’re aware of that you know um but is how they respond our business right right right no no is it that was a question not a statement no no it’s not and and that’s what keep in mind as well you know so what’s my responsibility as to follow the directions right it’s not me saying it right I mean it’s in the book I’m not trying to argue I told I it’s not me saying it right it’s in the book right and I’m too stupid to not follow directions right exactly and I’m and I guess I you know cuz it’s always been you know you only know what you know type thing right you know so for a long time what I knew was go to meetings and I’ll stay sober by doing that and my experience it’s not that and and so I’ve always heard you know well you know that does that’s not part of the imense process is to say I’m sorry and I guess had you seen a big book before you’ve been told that before I was told that uh yeah so who’s responsible for your recovery I understand thank you there really isn’t a situation with regards to amends it’s not really covered in the big book right there’s infidelity there’s owing creditors there’s needing to go back and make amends to jailers I mean the whole thing’s in the book look you know what I’m a firm believer in autonomy all right I am down with the fourth tradition of autonomy at the individual level whatever you do with this thing I really don’t give a okay but if you’re asking me for help this is what we’re going to do if I’m asking you for help I hope you show me what this what’s in this that’s really what it boils down to you but really this is a this is a God’s honest truth as a general rule in alcohol synonymous I don’t give a what you’re doing I don’t care how you’re doing your steps if you’re doing your steps when it matters you’re asking me for help I’m asking you for help or there’s newcomers in the room that’s when I that’s when it matters to me that’s it otherwise you can I am full bore on autonomy you want to come in here and share your experience but does not coincide with the book fine that’s your business I don’t care whatever over here okayy there what are uh what are your thoughts on making a mess to someone who has passed or died I’ve done it I mean I went to the grave site and read in the men’s letter um but I also believe them afterlife so that’s just my own personal opinion me too uh it brings into some spiritual terms in the book that uh I may not have been open to that I have to become open to if I’m really believing this thing is going to work like infinite power and love a god without time or limitation and interconnectedness right and um I I there was a there’s a girl that I dated I had to make amends to and and at first she said yes and then she said no I sent her a letter I hav heard her name I don’t know anything that’s gone on with her in 15 20 years I go up to our 4th of July loggers jamb Bri that I hadn’t been to in 10 15 years up in the mountains and uh I hear um Jason Taylor Memorial ax throw Jason Taylor was her brother and it’s a memorial he’s my age I didn’t know he died so I go to my best friend is’s putting on the jamere and he says and he go I what’s this thing about Jason Taylor Memorial he said he OED I said oh and I said we talked about it for a little bit I said How’s Stephanie taking that that was her uh his sister she’s dead too she committed suicide after she found out he overdose and I thought instantly I thought I’m so grateful I did everything I could to make that amend so grateful and and I’ve gone out and made a minuts too it it’s wacky stuff I don’t know if anybody else has inventory like this but I had resentments towards dead relatives I had resentment towards my uncle that blew his brains out after he come back from Vietnam I was only 3 years old because if he thought I was important enough to get to know he wouldn’t have blown his brains out and I resented a dead person for that and I went and made amends for that I believe in it too I believe in after I think there’s some those powerful amends y yeah oh Becky alcoholic I just wanted to share um that a lot of the amends that I made made um seems like uh were things that I thought that I had done to harm people but um the overwhelming majority of the amends that I made I remember they were like what and they they don’t remember what I did and um and when I think about that I think about you know the the rool of this people really dominated us and I think about the fancy reveal thing I think about how you know I thought I was hurting other people um when they didn’t really care and it just it it reminds me how incredibly egocentric and self absorbed I am you know I think I’m so important that I hurt other people you know they’re like I don’t even remember that you know and so that’s my I love that because that’s exactly what amens is about it’s about going out there and finding out just how you affect the world and how the world affects you that’s absolutely right on I went to a guy in AA his name was Richard Grand he’s long gone now and Richard uh I went up to make amends to Richard because I had borrowed some money from him and never paid him back and I went back to give him his money back and I said oh and by the way I really just really disliked you for a long time and I’m sorry for that and he goes damn he says I’ve never even thought about you hey exactly it’s like I start to learn that I’m not the center of the universe anymore anybody else no other questions I guess we’re done for this segment thank you for listening to sober Sunrise if you enjoyed today’s episode please give it a thumbs up as it will help share the message until next time have a great day