AA Speaker – Bill C. – Scottsdale, AZ – 2007
Bill C. from Scottsdale breaks down sponsorship in AA—the history from Oxford Group roots, strong vs. weak program, and why one-on-one work is the heart of recovery.
Bill C. from Scottsdale, Arizona walks through the origins and purpose of sponsorship in Alcoholics Anonymous at this 2007 workshop. In this AA speaker session, he traces sponsorship back to the Oxford Group, examines why the early program was so effective, and makes a direct argument that working one-on-one with others—not just attending meetings—is the core of recovery and the real mechanism for changing character defects.
This AA speaker workshop explores sponsorship as the centerpiece of recovery in Alcoholics Anonymous, tracing its roots to the Oxford Group’s one-on-one evangelism model that Bill W. and Dr. Bob adopted in the 1930s. Bill C. introduces the Akron Manual (1941) to show what early AA actually looked like—aggressive, committed to total sobriety, and organized around sponsor-sponsee relationships rather than meetings alone. He distinguishes between “strong AA” (full step work and daily practice), “medium AA” (stepping back after sobriety gains), and “weak AA” (attending meetings only), arguing that sponsorship is the missing link in modern recovery and the way character defects are truly addressed.
Episode Summary
Bill C. opens this workshop by establishing the historical foundation of sponsorship—something rarely discussed in modern meetings despite being the engine that drove early AA’s success. He traces sponsorship to the Oxford Group, a non-denominational Christian movement in the 1930s that practiced one-on-one spiritual mentoring. Bill W. and Dr. Bob, both Oxford Group members, transplanted this model directly into Alcoholics Anonymous when they started the first meetings. The structure wasn’t complicated: a sponsor and newcomer would sit together, work through the steps (often in a single day), and the newcomer would immediately begin working with others. This wasn’t viewed as optional—it was the program.
To ground this argument, Bill C. reads extensively from the Akron Manual, Dr. Bob’s 1941 document to sponsors and newcomers that surfaced decades later. The manual is striking in its directness: “Alcoholics Anonymous is 100% effective for those who Faithfully follow the rules.” It warned sponsors to hold sponsees accountable, explained that the goal was “total and permanent sobriety”—not one day at a time—and framed sponsorship as literally holding someone’s life in your hands. The manual made clear that AA’s purpose was not to sober up drunks who might drink again, but to create permanent abstinence through rigorous action.
Bill C. then introduces the concept of “strong,” “medium,” and “weak” AA programs—a framework from the 1970s document Gresham’s Law. Strong AA means taking all twelve steps immediately, practicing rigorous honesty, doing inventory regularly, praying daily, attending multiple meetings weekly, and actively sponsoring others. Medium AA starts strong but gradually eases off—procrastinating on difficult steps, doing less inventory as respectability returns, praying less as work and life get busier. Weak AA skips large chunks of the program from the start, relying almost entirely on meeting attendance to stay sober. The difference matters: strong AA members are actively changing, while weak AA members are passive, hoping meetings alone will keep them dry.
Here’s the key insight: Bill C. argues that sponsorship is not mentioned much in modern AA because it has been replaced by meetings and fellowship. Meetings are wonderful community, but they are not action. There is only one form of real 12-step work, he says, and that is working one-on-one with another alcoholic in a formal, structured way—reading the Big Book together, taking them through the steps, sitting alone in a room where real intimacy can happen. Everything else (committees, speaking, service work) is activity, not action. And activity, while good, is not recovery work.
The bulk of his talk moves into practical sponsorship—his philosophy and approach. He shares several profound stories: sitting with a man whose mother was dying in the hospital; being present when a friend’s eight-year-old son died of leukemia over two years; losing his own father to cancer after 45 years of sobriety; later nursing his mother in her final illness. These weren’t dramatic rescues—they were moments of showing up, holding hands, praying, and letting someone else’s pain touch his own. He admits these experiences were about ego at first (wanting to be seen as the good guy in AA), but as he accumulated emotional maturity through sobriety, they became about the other person.
From this comes his practical philosophy: never say no when someone asks for help, always answer the phone, don’t filter who enters your life. He’s had the same sponsor for 22 years, and he has sponsored many people—some for decades. He doesn’t believe in firing a sponsor or a sponsee; they simply leave when they’re ready. He takes anyone: people on medication, gay members, drug addicts, people of different faiths. The only rule is showing up and being willing to sit with discomfort and not understanding.
The emotional arc moves from historical grounding (why this matters) through practical wisdom (how to actually do it) to the deeper spiritual purpose: sponsorship is how God works his program through you. Your sponsor or sponsee isn’t there just to help them—they’re there to show you yourself. The people you don’t like are the most significant because they trigger something in you that needs attention. Without them, you stay in yourself. With them, you learn to love.
Bill C. closes by reflecting on his own evolution: at first motivated by ego and wanting credit, he slowly became genuinely moved by people’s suffering. When his father died, he wasn’t performing anymore—he was present. When his mother became ill, he was ready. This is what sponsorship builds: the capacity to be fully human, to stay close to others, and to understand that you cannot recover alone. You need them, and they need you.
Notable Quotes
The heart and soul of Alcoholics Anonymous is sponsorship. I don’t think the meetings are AA. The meetings are fellowship. There’s only one form of 12-step work, and that’s working with others.
If I truly believe that if I get on my knees and ask for help that it will come, then I probably shouldn’t send it away when it shows up—and it probably is not going to look like I think it’s going to look.
Sponsorship is the vehicle God uses for us to address our character defects. You will show me myself better than I will ever discover it on my own.
Everything’s okay. There’s nothing wrong here. This isn’t a mistake. Just relax.” (Reflecting on being present at someone’s mother’s deathbed)
I cannot recover without you. You are an integral part of my recovery, and the closer I am to you, the closer I am to God. God lives in the space between you and I.
Step Work
Big Book Study
Emotional Sobriety
Fellowship & Meetings
Topics Covered in This Transcript
- Sponsorship
- Step Work
- Big Book Study
- Emotional Sobriety
- Fellowship & Meetings
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Full AA Speaker Transcript
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welcome to sober Sunrise a podcast bringing you AA speaker meetings with stories of experience strength and Hope from around the world we bring you several new speakers weekly so be sure to subscribe whether you join us in the morning or at night there’s nothing better than a sober Sunrise we hope that you enjoy today’s speaker well good morning everybody my name is Bill and I’m an alcoholic it’s always interesting to see who shows up for an 8:30 Workshop strange group so uh I feel right at home um I’d like to start off with something this is a a workshop on sponsorship so we’re going to talk about a a lot of things about that about where it came from a little bit of the history of it um how it works because we’re kind of a small group maybe we’ll get into some Q&A or give you guys a chance to express your opinion rather than just mine and uh so what I’d like to do is I’d like to start off this with a a two-minute meditation and if you would let’s think about the people that were here when we got here the people that were kind to us somebody that got us a cup of coffee showed us the ropes and helped us find a seat in the meeting and maybe called called us unsolicited just to see how we were doing those people that really kept us here most of us don’t really remember what they said to us but we sure remember how we were treated and it was rough out there for a long time and you walk into AA and AA to me is a very safe place it should be a very safe place and mostly I think it is so let’s let’s think about those people maybe just give a little thanks or just picture their faces in our our memory we’ll do it for a couple of minutes for for for thank you it’s a quick two minutes wasn’t it um so our topic this morning is sponsorship um I get to do this uh a lot around the country which is a real gift um visit different places go to different places and talk to people and do some workshops and uh I got sober in Southern California in the South Bay I live in Torrance and it is a hot bed of sobriety there is birthday singing and cakes and everybody claps after everybody sh beair and it’s just kind of a zoo and that’s my home that’s my culture that’s where I got sober so when I go around the country and they’re not singing happy birthday and they’re not clapping and they’re not I go what is wrong with these people I’ve walked into Alano Clubs and actually seen a sign on the wall that says we don’t care how you do it in California cuz I think they think we’re a little pushy and arrogant you know and probably some truth to that but here in Phoenix I understand that it’s much the same I get down here my family’s from here and I’ve been down here quite a bit and in our part of the country in our area there is a real ethic of sponsorship it’s real hard to go to meetings where I’m from anyway uh where that is not talked about get a sponsor work the steps go to lots of meetings you hear that incessantly in other parts of the country it’s not really the case there is a movement of foot uh um Wally P my buddy uh Back to Basics and people will talk about the fact that we’ve lost our Edge that our success rate isn’t what it once was that we’re not as effective as we used to be in Alcoholics Anonymous I think that’s completely wrong I think we’re as effective and as Dynamic and aggressive and successful as we’ve ever been and we’ll talk about that a little bit I’ll give you a reason why I feel that way Alcoholics Anonymous came from an organization called the Oxford Group Bill and Bob were both members of the Oxford Group the way Bill met Bob was through the Oxford Group uh Henrietta cerling was Anne Smith’s sponsor in the Oxford Group group when they got together and Bob finally stopped drinking um they went to Oxford group meetings they were the alcoholic Squad of the Oxford Group Bill Wilson was kicked out of the Oxford Group in New York the reason he was kicked out of the Oxford Group is because he wasn’t maximum they wanted him as part of the businessman’s group cuz he was a stock Speculator and he had a lot of connections in Wall Street and they wanted him to work within that Community to try to bring people into the organization and all Bill wanted to do was work with those drunks so they kicked him out when the first meeting started u they were having meetings in akan at uh what was his name t Henry’s house and the the the meetings got too large they were bringing in too many drunks most of them weren’t staying sober so they finally started a meeting in King’s school which I believe is still going on in akan and uh Clarence Snider down in Cleveland was the first guy to start a meeting called Alcoholics Anonymous they weren’t so connected to the Oxford Group but the Oxford Group teaching was oneon-one evangelism they called it they called themselves Soul surgeons and uh what they would do they didn’t gather people together in large tents and try to convert them they weren’t really a church they were a non-denominational Christian organization but they were a movement they had aspirations they wanted to change the world they’re still around today they’re called initiatives of change I visited their place in Coast Switzerland last year it’s just remarkable they’re still the active vibrant organization and uh so when they formed Alcoholics Anonymous they went with what they knew the Asher group had House parties where they shared they gave testimony and they each one shared their story they lined people up together people with similar problems or similar issues even if they weren’t called problems they would say well why don’t you two get together and meditate together and what they would do these two people the sponsor and the sponsy would sit and meditate they would have an issue or something that they were concerned about possibly and they would meditate for a period of time and they would have a pad in the paper and after they got done with the meditation they sat down and they wrote out what God said to them because they fully expected to receive an answer then just to be careful they shared that with each other to make sure it wasn’t the devil you know cleared it through somebody else you know and uh and had four steps a lot of times you hear it talk about six steps but there were really only four and they added a couple when they for before the book was ever written wrote so Wilson and Smith went with what they know this is what they know Wilson was very open about the fact that all of One Day at a Time God as you understand God all that stuff came from the oxy group um there are some really interesting books written where you can take the big book and then apply it to Oxford Group writings and it’s just plagiarism you know the 12 and 12 which our speaker last night was the first time I’ve ever heard anybody in Alcoholics Anonymous talk so much about the 12 and 12 and actually read from it from a Podium some would consider that heresy um but the 12 and 12 is a very different document isn’t it I mean if you’ve read it I mean it’s 15 years after he got sober and mostly it’s about his defects of character you Mr Wilson you can track his life through AA writing you know because he wrote about himself and that’s why we identify with him very similar to him well in the 1940s after the book came out when they wrote the book Wilson actually went to Sam Shoemaker who was the minister of Calvary Chapel and he said Sam we need to write a book I want you to write it cuz Shoemaker was very prolific real charismatic Billy Graham said about Sam Shoemaker if Sam Shoemaker hadn’t have died of cancer in the early 60s you would have never heard of me Shoemaker was a big deal in the United States he was the head of the Oxford Group movement in the US he’s Episcopalian Minister spoke a lot on college campuses and stuff and he was just a and this is I can wander off into the history of AA but he had a lot to do with the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous and I think probably more than anybody he was Wilson’s sponsor somebody that Wilson really listened to well he went to Sam and he said write the book Shoemaker and His Brilliant said no bill this is your gig you know you do it I’ll help but you can do this and uh so Wilson sat down and started doing it and as you know they passed it around they kind of edited it and they softened it up well the 75% success rate comes from the forward to the second and it talks about 75% of the people get sober 50% sober up right away and stay that way another 25% after a slip or two they get sober and the other 25% show Improvement and uh where do you get this Statistics you get these statistics from a failed stock Speculator a shaky handed Proctologist who they pretty much kept out of the loop Bob was just working with people bill you go ahead and promote and I’m going to go over here and Hank Parkhurst who was a used car salesman these are the guys that came up with phony stock certificates to Works publishing to try to raise money and some of those are still floating around and so 75% how do they know how do they know 75% 1939 they wrote the book and they sent it out there and they made they called the steps suggestions which any of us that have been around a while know that that’s you know you pretty much have to do something if you want to stay around here but they called them suggestions they said we instead of you they softened it they softened it and they sent it out there hoping to get people to respond this was a sales tool and I think unabashedly so I mean this is what they wanted they wanted to get they knew they had something really worthwhile and they wanted to Market it remember his idea was to build hospitals from one end of the country to the other which has pretty much happened not the way he envisioned it but it’s pretty much happened hasn’t it I mean recovery is an industry it’s an industry now it’s hip now who knew know well in 1941 Bob Smith old Bob over here just working with people came up with a an incredible document it’s called the akran manual I’ve got a sign up list here if anybody would like to get copies of this stuff that I’m going to quote from you put your name and email address and I’ll email it to you the akan manual surfaced some years ago and uh I believe this is what they were really doing compared to what was written in the book or what was known publicly so I’m going to quote you a few little lines from the akran manual which is their real eye opening this is written to the newcomer and to the sponsor another thing you hear sponsorship is not mentioned in the big book it is too the big book is much bigger than 164 pages people seem to forget that there are stories in the back part of the book all about sponsorship explain that we are not in the business of sobering up drunks merely to have them go on another Bender explain that our aim is total and permanent sobriety what happened to one day at a time definition of an Alcoholic Anonymous an Alcoholic Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application of and it adherence to the rules laid down by the organization has completely Forsworn the use of any and all alcoholic beverages the moment he wittingly drinks so much as a drop of beer wine spirits or any other alcoholic drink he automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous AA is not interested in sobering up drunks who are not sincere in their desire to remain completely sober for all time not one time in this thing does it say one day at a time and that’s a pretty thick thing not once there is no one day at a time in this thing these guys were serious to the newcomer it is your life it is your choice if you are not completely convinced to your own satisfaction that you are an alcoholic that your life has become unmanageable if you are not ready to part with alcohol forever it would be better for all concerned if you discontinued reading this and give up the idea of becoming a member of Alcoholics Anonymous sweet Dr Bob remember when I first read this I called my sponsor went whoa dude you can’t believe this these guys were cruel a word to the sponsor you must fulfill all pledges you make to him either tangible or intangible if you cannot fulfill a promise do not make it you have in your hands the most valuable property in the world the future of a fellow man treat his life as carefully as you would your own you are literally responsible for his life bit much Alcoholics Anonymous is 100% effective for those who Faithfully follow the rules 100% effective it is those who try to cut Corners who find themselves back in their old drunken State before long you will have a new Thrill The Thrill of helping someone else there is no greater satisfaction in the world than watching the progress of a new Alcoholic Anonymous no Whiskey in the world can give you this thrill above all remember this keep the rules in mind as long as you follow them you are on firm ground but the least deviation and you are vulnerable as a new member remember that you are one of the most important cogs in the Machinery of AA without the work of the new member AA could not have grown as it has you will bring into this work a fresh enthusiasm the Zeal of a crusader you will want everyone to share with you the blessings of this new life you will be tireless in your efforts to help others and it is a splended enthusiasm cherish it as long as you can that’s a really beautiful paragraph I think I mean this is what these guys were experiencing they were out they were going to hospitals and they would go into a hospital and they would go down the beds and they would ask each one of these guys do you want to stop drinking do you realize that you have a problem do do you want to we have a way out do you want to stop and if the guy said yes they would bring him into a meeting if he said no they just went on to the next bed so they called them out they didn’t try to sell this thing to somebody that wasn’t interested if there was somebody sitting there that was really hurting they would bring these guys out of the hospital they’d start working with them start talking with them and and and and they would get sober and they would see their lives changed God they they were just pumped up they weren’t writing inventory they were saving Souls every day what can you imagine how exciting that must have been in the early days when it was like you know one week you go to a meeting there’s five people there you know 3 weeks later there’s 15 and then two 3 4 months later there’s a hundred I mean that’s what it was happening that’s what was happening can you imagine the phone calls between akan and New York as they were they were trading ideas they were talking how do you how do you convey this they didn’t know how to convey it they did not know how to convey it especially before the book they didn’t have any structure they just knew that they were sober and that they sat down they talked with each other remember Wilson came from New York where he was dragging people to his apartment and they were just drinking he never saved a soul silkworth told him quit preaching religion and tell your story The non-alcoholic told him shut up Bill you know you know I don’t think they want to hear about Jesus you know there’s nothing worse than a born again agnostic you know that goes out there or or a recovered smoker you know or somebody who’s suddenly become vegetarian you know not that any of us identify with for you are ready to sponsor some poor alcoholic who is desperately in need of help both human and Divine so God bless you I love this one this is great this is the Capper I think really you aren’t very important in this world if you lose your job someone better will replace you if you die your wife will mourn briefly and then remarry your children will grow up and you will be but a memory in the last analysis you are the only one who benefits by your sobriety seek to cultivate humility remember that Cockiness leads to a speedy fall Medical men will tell you that alcoholics are all alike in at least one respect they are emotionally immature in other words alcoholics have not learned to think like adults you know what you hear in AA meetings as you you hear about this thing called alcoholic thinking as if there really is such a thing it’s emotional immaturity and we say no I have special thinking it’s it can’t be I have special thinking and you need to consider that when you’re dealing with me I have special thinking I think we’re just immature as painful as that might be at meetings don’t criticize the leader he has his own problems this is 1941 the same was going on you know and is doing the best he can to solve them help him along by standing up and saying a few words he will appreciate your kindness and thoughtfulness don’t criticize the methods of others strangely enough you may change your own ideas as you become older in sobriety remember there are a dozen roads from Chicago to New York but they all land in Chicago or something like that how soon you will be cured of a desire to drink is another matter that depends entirely upon how quickly you can succeed in changing your fundamental outlook on life for as your outlook changes for the better desire will become less pronounced until it disappears almost entirely it may be weeks or it may be months your sincerity and your capacity for working with others on the AA program will determine the length of time here’s the closer Alcoholics Anonymous is based on a set of laws known as the 12 Steps years of experience have definitely proved that those who live up to these rules remain sober those who gloss over or ignore any one rule are in constant danger of returning to a life of drunkenness thousands of words could be written on each rule lack of space prevents so they are merely listed here it is suggested that they be explained by the sponsor if he cannot explain them he should provide someone who can Acron manual has AA evolved from that yes is it a good thing mostly mostly I think we’ve opened the door we’ve allowed a lot of people in we are not going to hospitals anymore seeking them out and dragging them into meetings they just come wandering in thousands of them all the time they get sent here by the courts they get sent here by by their parents you know from recovery places recovery houses we are the world’s after Care Program you know this is exactly what Bill Wilson wanted exactly matter of fact I think he’d be happier is probably more than he ever thought would ever happen he spent the last years in his life and and uh tonight I’ll tell my story but my father was involved in this and Chuck Chamberlain and a bunch of people going to Washington lobbying Congress trying to get them to open up funding for hospitals for Recovery to stop putting alcoholics in prison and put them into recovery programs they wanted validation from the federal government so the insurance companies would start treating it as an illness as a disease as the AMA recognized it in the early 50s and that happened the insurance companies jumped on the bandwagon it was underwritten by the federal government and all of a sudden there were hospitals all over the alcoholics were going and getting jobs as counselors remember some of you remember still are but there’s not as much money in it anymore and there was a there there arose an antagonistic relationship between these Hospital programs and Alcoholics Anonymous it became a war it was not pretty it was not it was not good I think Wilson was really rolling over in his grave when that happened all of a sudden we got our nose been out of joint we wouldn’t sign the court cards we we didn’t like the hospitals they were dumping addicts in Alcoholics Anonymous and it’s just not right and there were a war sprang up so pretty soon the insurance companies quit funding it now you’ve got 12 step houses you’ve got social model recovery places and what do these places do they use the meetings for their program they use us for their program which I think they should we’re the experts the inmates are running the Asylum you know Don pritz one of the trustees a former Trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous and died not too long ago said a very powerful thing he said there are no issues in Alcoholics Anonymous that cannot be resolved through intelligent informed sponsorship we’re the ones that know where we are when they come in I think we’re the ones to describe where the they are and what the rules are when they get here and one breath will say rules you shouldn’t say rules but in the other in the back of our heads There Are Rules aren’t there and some people come into AA and they don’t follow the rules and we get pissy you know um a man by the name of Tom p got sober in 1941 and he got tight with Wilson and he ended up helping Wilson and AA edit the second edition to the big book and edit the 12 and 12 and uh he was an educated academic kind of guy and and uh he got really involved in this and then he split off from Alcoholics Anonymous because he felt that we weren’t adhering to the principle and he founded his own little organization in Upstate New York and he called it all addicts anonymous and they started doing things the correct way they started eating correctly they started adhering to certain rules the way he thought AA should be my sponsor Jay actually visited this place a few years ago Tom P just has recently passed away the the older his son is now running it and it was a group of trailers parked in the woods and Jay came out of there he goes it was like James Town man it was scary it was scary man nobody was laughing very much you know it was a little icky but in the 70s they wrote a document that I think is really really good and it’s called Gram’s law and Gram’s law is is an economic term and what gresham’s law says is that good Money Follows bad money that when you start putting investing into something that isn’t good but you keep doing it long enough pretty soon it becomes the standard this is the way we do it so the good money will follow it and then everybody stands around and goes what happened to our Fortune we were doing what we’d always done well this is something they wrote about Alcoholics Anonymous they applied this to Alcoholics Anonymous and they talk about strong medium and weak program what’s it look like if we’re losing our Edge where is it being lost what have we lost what is there is there some good stuff in the past that we’ve overlooked have we really stepped away from the strength of Alcoholics Anonymous have we or have we break it down so they broke it down they looked at it and said this is what we think it says by now it is possible to distinguish three variant practices of the program which we have labeled the strong cup of coffee medium cup of coffee and weak cup of coffee approaches strong AA the original undiluted dosage of spiritual principles strong AAS took all 12 steps Bill and Bob didn’t know that you couldn’t you you didn’t have to do some of it and you could stay sober they didn’t know that they thought you had to do it all I mean they put the thing together and say if you do all of this you’ll be okay they didn’t know that you could do half of it and be cool you know they didn’t know that strong AAS took all 12 steps and kept on taking them they did not stopped with the admission of powerless over alcohol but went on right away to turn their will and life over to God’s care they began to practice rigorous honesty in all their Affairs in short order they proceeded to take a moral inventory admit all of their wrongs to at least one other person take positive and forceful action in making such restitution as was possible to those wrongs continue taking inventory admitting their faults and making restitution on a regular basis pray and meditate every day go to two or more AA meetings weekly and actively work the 12st step carrying the a message to others in trouble I think that’s it isn’t it that’s pretty much it if you’re doing that you’re probably in a pretty good space you know medium the medium AA started off with a bang pretty much like the strong AAS except they hedged or procrastinated on bits or parts of the program that they feared or did not like maybe the God steps maybe the inventory steps depending on their particular nervousness or dislikes but after they had stayed sober for a while the medium AAS eased up and settled into a practice of the program that went something like this in AA meeting a week occasional 12-step work leaving more and more of that on the newer fellows as time went on some work with the steps but not like before less and less inventory as they became more and more respectable that’s painful some prayer and meditation still but not on a daily basis anymore not enough time due to the encroachment of business engagement social activities and other baggage that went along with the return to normal life and the workday world I think that’s I think probably all of us if we’ve been around a while we’ve all done this we’ve all kicked back a little you know I’m cool I’m all right you know the week AAS are a varied lot the thing common to all of them was that they left big chunks of the program totally and permanently out of their Reckoning right from the outset sometimes the God steps sometimes the inventory steps often both week AAS tended to walk talk in terms like all you need to do is stay sober is go to meetings and stay away from the first drink most of the week AAS who were successful in staying sober were pretty faithful meeting goers since they wereing doing so little with the principles their sobriety and their survival depended more exclusively than those of the strong and medium AAS on constant exposure to the people of AA I think the key to strong AA is sponsorship I think the heart and soul of Alcoholics Anonymous is sponsorship I don’t think the meetings are AA I think the meetings are Fellowship meetings are good I’m lucky I like AA I enjoy it I did pretty much from the start so it’s fun to go I like to be involved I like to participate but I think there’s a big difference between activity and action I think there’s only one job in Alcoholics Anonymous only one that’s working with others there’s only one form of 12 step work there’s only one and that’s working with others there are not a lot of different forms of 12ep work there aren’t a lot of different ways that you can give back to the fellowship there’s only one all the rest of it is activity and all of the activity is wonderful it’s being part of a community it’s the fun part but there’s only one form of 12-step work there’s only one reason why you and I were saved that’s to help others in a formal way not just driving them to meetings not just calling them up once in a while or accepting their phone calls but sitting with them alone in a room somewhere reading the book together turning the pages and working the steps together alone that’s intimate that scares the living but Jesus out of most of us that intimacy we’re all looking for it we all want to be closer to each other but we don’t know how this is the mechanism this is it this is the 80% of the program 80% of the program of recovery is working with others 20% is steps 1 through n it’s sober 101 it’s not the big deal working with others is the big deal so if that is the big deal how do you do it what do you do are there rules are there rules I think there’s a few rules I think never talking down to an alcoholic as a rule I don’t think we need to do that we don’t need to point our finger at them and say put them in their place you know isn’t that what’s happened to us most of our Lives is being put in our place I think being a listener is important to the recovery process to being a sponsor answer learning how to listen not just talk all the time I will go through certain things when I’m sponsoring you I will become your therapist you will suck me into your drama especially if it’s really interesting you know and I will try to solve your problem for you I I’ll really try you know I’ll be your surrogate father I’ll hold you and rock you I’ll yell and scream at you if I think it might shake your tree you know maybe this will get him to listen when none of that works I will then stop doing those things that’s how I grow that’s how I grow up that’s how I learn how to interact with other human beings is because I identify with you upfront going into the process I identify with you you and I have been in the same incomprehensible demoralized Place we’ve lost most everything especially most things that are dear to us even if it’s not financially so we identify with each other and then we begin the process now in the early days of Alcoholics Anonymous there was no long-term sponsorship there weren’t any long-term sober people you know they didn’t know that this would go on their their IDE idea of sponsorship was you bring the guy into the meeting you bring him into the fellowship into the recovery process you work the steps with them usually in a day in a day they’d get it out of the way you know you write down some stuff and they weren’t so much into the columns and stuff but I bet you some were you know some of them got into it some of the academic ones really broke it down you know and got into well you got to do it like this you know so we we come up with this format and certainly that’s what they put in the book If you read the book the four step in the book Alcoholic Anonymous is pretty comprehensive you have to kind of pour over it a little bit to find out what they were really getting at but it’s not a life story is it that’s not what it’s about it’s not the good and the bad you know you don’t put yourself at the top of the amen’s list because you’ve been Your Own Worst Enemy you know um you don’t have to learn to love yourself before you can love others you know that kind you don’t take what you can use and leave the rest you don’t all this crap has been it’s just my opinion but it’s really good and you know get that off the table but none of that is in the book and you can see what it’s about the sponsors should understand this okay but what these guys did is they guided them through the process of the step boom boom boom boom and then sent him out eie Thatcher was 60 days sober 60 days clearly he was cured yeah clearly clearly he Ebie is cool go get him eie go get the worst one you know this is Oxford Group no AA Oxford Group goes you were a loser go find another one like you you know seemed apparent to them didn’t it I mean this was apparent this is what you do you know you take somebody that was in the throws of alcoholism or gambling addiction or sexual addiction or whatever it was food addiction whatever they had that was going wrong and when you cure them you send them out to cure someone else you drop the pebble in the water and boom off it goes this is ancient stuff eie showed up there 60 days sober and said I’ve got religion scared the out of Wilson you know I was like my God it scared him so bad he got drunk and went looking for him you know so now fast forward to us I’ve had the same sponsor for 22 years I don’t want to break in another one he’s younger than me and he’s got a full head of of hair all of which pisses me off you know but that’s the longest relationship I’ve ever had 22 years I’ve been with that man so now we’ve got this weird kind of relationship the sponsor thing that goes on for a long time and it’s beyond just working the steps isn’t it things change in sobriety as we evolve I’m emotionally immature I drank through that part when I was a teenager I got loaded and I missed it I got sober at 37 almost 38 years old with the emotional development of a 16-year-old and this kid was not an honor student he was the one with the bit of a problem with authority and here he is is 6’5 280 lb middle-aged looks like he’s grown up but he’s not he’s not he walks in the room and you don’t pay any attention to him and he gets all pissy he walks in the room and you’re looking at him and he gets all pissy there’s no way that he can’t not be pissy you know so he starts working the steps he works the steps and he does an inventory and he gets honest with this guy and he makes some amends my sponsor told me a couple of things that I think are very important his job as my sponsor is to guide me through the process of the 12 Steps so that I might find a power that’s greater than myself that will solve my problems he said I’d be happy to talk to you about what you think your problems are so that you will not share about them in the meetings the meetings are for recovery from alcoholism not about how your day went 22 years later cuz I I I started I just believed him I didn’t know and I just went to meetings and I went back and I reported I said you know you’re full of they’re talking about how their day went down there all the time you know what is this you’re telling me because that’s not what I’m experiencing in the meetings he goes AA is a safe place you can say anything you want an Alcoholics Anonymous I’m just giving you my opinion what I see now is I see a lot of people in Alcoholics Anonymous I think what Wall-E sees and what the Back to Basics people see what all they see is people using the meetings as their sponsor people that don’t have a sponsor or don’t use one are not working the steps on a continual basis bring their problems to the meetings which is never what it was supposed to be for ever this is the strong medium weak indication lots of people that use Alcoholics Anonymous as a support group as a self-help program as a refuge and it is those things it can be those things but is it a very good one no it’s the character defect center of the known universe there is no facilitator sitting there to help us work through our stuff it’s just us waiting our turn to share our crap there is the illusion of intimacy because we talk about heavy it’s not inate it’s just us talking about ourselves again and continually over and over and over that horrible self-obsession that horrible bondage of self what my sponsor did for me and a group of people my home group and and stuff as they said get into action start driving them around start working with them I started sponsoring people when I was 9 months sober and I’ve been actively doing that for 22 years I’ve gone to hospitals with you I’ve watched your children be born I’ve watched your children die I’ve watched you die I help my parents die I watch my friends get sick sick and recover some do some don’t I’ve been called in the middle of the night to come and try to help you through a domestic dispute with your wife which fortunately just before I left the door I called my sponsor and he said when you walk in there what are you going to do I had no clue you know and I didn’t go I called him up and I said you know come on over here why don’t you get the hell out of the house and come over to my house which is what he did I want to tell you a quick story and then maybe we can talk about some of this stuff about technique and whatnot when I was uh maybe 2 years sober this guy was standing in my kitchen and he had left the phone number of my house to the hospital where his mother was dying and he knew that he’d be there so he left the phone number and they called him and they said you better get back here um looks like she’s not going to make it so he got up to leave but he wasn’t leaving and I knew he want what he wanted and I didn’t want to go you can find People in AA that will tell you that there’s certain things that we don’t have to do that we’re not qualified to do that there’s limitations on what we have to do and you can draw those lines I did not find those people in the big book there are no lines you might have to loan money you might let him sleep in your house we suggest that doing this for very long isn’t good because you begin to enable them I mean if anybody’s done this stuff you found yourself trying to talk them into being sober anybody here been successful at that you know you know maybe there’s these little glimpses but you know we can’t really effectively be anybody’s therapist but we can be compassionate and empathetic we can understand I don’t believe that you need to identify with me or I need to identify with you in order for me to sponsor you they say find someone you identify with well if you’re new in AA and you find someone to identify with that’s probably not the right person for you to be with you know I think that’s some of the worst advice you could give anybody you know our speaker last night talked about it gold Mercedes flashy he identified with that that was his first sponsor you know and you hear that story over and over and over again find someone that knows something somebody that’s pounding on the book something one of those guys that you don’t particularly care for it reminds you of your eighth grade math teacher you know find that guy he probably knows some you know he might be able to help you I don’t think there’s any limitations on it I think we go anywhere if I’ve set up my life if I truly believe that if I get on my knees and ask for help that it will come then I probably shouldn’t send it away when it shows up and it probably is not going to look like I think it’s going to look like I believe the vehicle God uses for us to address our Character defects is sponsorship you want to address your Character defects sponsor people you’ll run into every one of them absolutely you want to learn patience and tolerance don’t ever fire them rule never fire them you didn’t hire them in the first place did you you know how could you fire somebody you’re fired there’s an alcoholic Behaving Badly live mini cam report you know you didn’t do what I said oh my God you’re fired I mean some people think I’m arrogant but I have my limitations you know I mean firing people is just beyond I can’t conceive of it plus the fact my experience is you don’t have to fire them they just leave just because I don’t fire you doesn’t mean I have to be nice to you you know I can be disdainful I can be I can look at you and go you live like a pig you know why do you still dress like that I’ll say things like that you’re 10 years sober you look like a homeless guy what’s up with that you know they people you you want that kind of reaction you know they’ll go they’ll move on to somebody else we have one guy that comes to mind that is working his way around the Hermosa Beach B stag trying to find somebody that says it’s okay to live like a pig when you’re 11 or 12 years sober no it’s not so I don’t think there are any limitations if you’re a drug addict and I’m not is that reason enough to turn you down if you ask me to sponsor you I don’t think you have any problem being a drug addict do you you don’t need any help with me about drug addiction you know guy walked up to me one time and he says would you be my sponsor I think I should tell you I’m gay I said wouldn’t you rather have a gay sponsor you look at me he goes no he says I don’t have any problem being gay drinking is an issue though you know well of course you know who can’t this woman came came up to me I did this rant she says this girl asked me to sponsor her and she’s a cocaine addict and I’ve never done cocaine so I told her no what do you think and I go well you’re never going to learn about cocaine addiction now because God sent you that woman and you sent her away you know what does she need to know about cocaine addiction doesn’t she want recovery don’t we know about recovery I I will take anybody through the 12 Steps it’s not up to me to decide whether you’re correctly alcoholic enough for me to work with you know if I’m going to get good at this I’m going to need a lot of different kinds of people that come in my life what about people on medication do you know that people actually turn people away won’t help them can you believe that people walk up and say will you help me I’m bipolar and I’m on medication and they go no I don’t work with people on medication how can you say that I mean where do you think you are what do you think this is do you really want the hand of AA to be there when anybody anywhere anytime reaches out is that true or not it’s not up to me to decide I’ll work with anybody and if they come up and and we start working and it doesn’t work maybe they need to hang on to me for a little while before they find the right person to be with maybe I’m a stop Gap measure that’s happened to me a lot you know and then they find somebody that they really identify with you know and and off they go off they go maybe I kept him around for a while who knows it’s not up to me to decide I’m not running the show you know God has not instilled me with the wisdom to filter you out so this guy’s standing in my in my kitchen and he won’t leave so I said do you want me to go with you and he said would you please now he has a family brothers and sisters and stuff like that but for some reason they trust us more than their own family isn’t that interesting I wonder what that is you know so I went with him and it was awful I mean she was all hooked up to tubes and stuff and uh I was shocked I’d never seen anything like that before I’d never seen anybody die and I sat in a chair next to the bed and I and I got quiet and this feeling came over me and the feeling was everything’s okay Bill there’s nothing wrong here this isn’t a mistake just relax so I brought my friend over and I sat him down next to me and we held hands we said a prayer together and I looked at him and I said everything’s okay Al there’s nothing wrong it’s all right and he was holding on to my hand really he’s a great big guy like me and he was really had a tight grip and when we were praying I could feel his hand relax in my hand that’s enemy that’s intimacy and I miss it all the time I’m looking for a Head Rush and most emotions are very quiet and subtle and I miss them and I never would allow myself to be in a position to experience anything like that if it had been my choice I would have said no to him in the kitchen okay so what I have to do is I have to live by a couple of rules always answer the phone and never say no no call or ID I don’t filter who comes into my life anymore I’m powerless my life’s unmanageable you just come just come all the time my experience is I’ll never be given more than I can handle but I will definitely get my ass maxed out you know that’s my wife calling I should answer it huh no well you don’t the calls I’m right in the middle of doing Workshop you want to say hi to all the people hello see you later she said you idiot that was too perfect she just celebrated 17 years surprise um so I miss it all the time I miss these things and I have to be put in situations that I’m uncomfortable in situations that I don’t understand that I don’t know the rules I don’t know how to speak the language sponsorship does that for us you will invite me into your life when I don’t really want to go I’m afraid I’m I’m uncomfortable I don’t know how to behave and that’s when the experiences happen that’s when it begins to happen that’s what happened to Bill and Bob that’s what happened to them Bob worked with what 5,000 people they estimate in the 15 years he was sober 5,000 people my God how do you do that one at a time one at a time after my friend Al’s experience with his dying mother uh my friend Chris ganner had a 8-year-old son that caught leukemia took him 2 years to die and we went in that hospital near the end almost every day to sit with our friend we stood around the little boy’s bed and held hands and prayed for his death because it was just and my children are the same age I was in that hospital one time I started having heart palpitations and they ran me up to the Cardiac Care Unit I just couldn’t I couldn’t deal with it it was just too much for me you know and my friend Chris whose son was dying came up to visit me he goes this is the most Shameless Ploy for the center of attention I have ever seen in my life yeah only an AA you know in in the midst of a Dying child can you give your buddy some you know and uh and the little boy died and I know what would happen if one of my children died now cuz I’m just like Chris it was hell it was horrible he lived he has two more children now you know he lived he survived it which is unbelievable I mean that’s the worst thing you can imagine my friend Patrick Kahan that I got sober with whose mother called him the devil of all liars he’s he was a little Irish and he was an awful person really and uh he got sober he got lung cancer and we took him on retreat with us a couple of times he had an open wound in his back to use to drain the fluid from his lungs the doctor showed us how to pack the wounds so that we could get him out of the hospital and take him on Retreat took meetings to his house I was there when he died and uh and I lost my friend my father came to me when he was 85 years old back in 1999 he says I’ve got cancer and I’m not going to do the chemotherapy and uh I’m going to go for the ride and I was ready you had made me ready I’d seen the face of death and we went for the ride my mother and I nursed him and and uh my father was sober 45 years and uh we had a great memorial for him I there’s some funny stuff that happened when he was dying but I was ready my mother and I changed his diapers you know and took care of him I hated my father like which is a requirement for being an alcoholic you know and we had made amends and then we gave each other birthday cakes for 45 years for 14 years in in the Hermosa Beach men Stag and and I found my dad and then he died like happens it happens to us we die and I was ready and I’ll tell you something when he was dying I did didn’t feel required to make it about me when I was going through the experiences with Al and with my friend Chris with the kid and with my friend Patrick it was about me part of my motivation for going there is because I wanted you to think well of me that I’m a member in good standing of AA Bill he’ll go into the hospital and I and I reveled in that I liked the ego of being a good guy and being thought of as a good guy when the little boy was dying and I was having heart P was it about me absolutely look what Bill’s going through he’s walking into the hospital again and he’s taking care of Chris and he’s look and and you know how they say do something nice for somebody and then don’t tell anybody I don’t think I’ve ever done that if I don’t tell people it didn’t really happen you know cuz I’m ego driven I’m a I’m I’m a newcomer in AA and I’m ego driven you can’t find humility by pretending to be humble when a kid grows up in a teenage years he goes through experiences that deepen him emotionally and he does a bunch of dumb things he’s awkward and gawy and geeky and he has fears and he’s you know he’s motivated by self I mean how else could it be by the time he’s 25 years old he pretty much comes out of that mostly don’t you think I mean they they if they if they’re healthy by the time they’re 25 they’re fairly well balanced by the time they hit 30 they’re a fairly decent person not totally driven by self they’re able to absorb and take other people into their lives and part of their own personality is these other people how does that happen for us and Alcoholics Anonymous we walk into the hospital and pretend that we’re selfless emotional honesty is a you know I’m motivated by self when my father got sick I was much less motivated by self because I felt the pain of being motivated by self in these previous experiences I mean how shallow can I continue to be if I have some awareness if I’m living uh some sort of an examined life I can see this stuff and go o I don’t like that part that’s not cool you know by the time my father got sick I was ready it was about him wasn’t about me it was about him my mother got sick after that my mother moved in with me and uh she got sick at 85 and I nursed her by myself and changed her diapers and uh it was a remarkable experience something I wouldn’t trade for anything in the world and you all showed up during my father and my mother you all showed up now I ask you a question what if I would have said no to that man in my kitchen what if somebody comes up to me and asks me for help or for something and I say no do I fully understand the ramifications of that decision no I don’t think we get it you know and when we limit ourselves we limit ourselves we are limited to the experience that we decide that we’re going to have if I don’t want to be uncomfortable nothing will ever change you know sponsorship is the vehicle it’s how we address our Character defects I will see myself Through Your Eyes much better than I will ever Discover it on my own much better than any inventory after inventory after inventory you will show me me better than I could ever see it so I have a question for you should everybody sponsor good you passed you know some people say no you know everybody shouldn’t sponsor that there’s other things to do I think those are part of The Lies We Tell ourselves those are our own insecurities and I need to lean into that kind of stuff no I think that uh you will draw me into your drama many times when I’m working with you I will get sucked into what’s going on in your life as time has gone by I get less sucked in I get less to less invested in your recovery I’m not invested so much in your recovery the success rate the operative term in the 75% success rate is those who really tried those who really tried my success rate in sponsoring people with those who really tried is higher than 75% the ones who really tried the guy Allen my kitchen he’s like Jay and I I’ve been his only sponsor for 20 years everybody thanks me thank you Bill for taking Al off of our hands you know Al’s a little weird you know but I think Al thinks I’m a little weird you know but I’ve got guys I’ve sponsored for a long time they really tried what do we talk about now we talk about sponsoring guys I have a guy Mike that calls me up and he goes I have a problem of a abundance can I whine to you about it sometimes I tell him no at least he’s identified it correctly you know he actually owns a house that’s pretty remarkable for this guy you know so now he has homeowners problems you know repair issues you know he has no money I said you have no money because you have a wife in a house you’re not supposed to have any money it’s the way it works you know get with the program you know but the things we talk about is working with others and where we’re going and what we’re doing you can tell when somebody’s starting to get well when they call you up and they talk about someone else besides themselves if it’s true that selfishness and self-centeredness is the root of our problem then I think we need to get out of ourselves and into other human beings and the mechanism that God uses for us to do that with is is sponsorship what about people on medication two two things in closing there’s two big issues the the thing about AA is it effective or not it has been inundated with just all kinds of people every one of us if we’ve been around here long enough we’ve met People in AA that aren’t really alcoholics if you sit down and you talk to him about it this one guy asked me to sponsor me he says I’ve never really been drunk I went boy why are you here well my therapist sent me here said it would be good for my social skills so I’m looking at him and I thought now this is one you get to say no this this is like over the edge I said all right I’ll do it but don’t tell anybody and I told him I said don’t share in meetings you have nothing to share but just sit and listen so I work the steps with him in his inventory was mostly about relationships that he’d had previous relationships with women this guy rode bicycles and I was just getting in I’d lost 100 lbs and uh and I was getting healthy and I was riding bicycles and I was trying to get competitive and I wanted to ride the svang sentury and I couldn’t find anybody to go with me and he heard me talking about he goes I’ll go with you I’ll ride with you said okay so he went with me at about mile 70 when we come around this Bend and I look up and there’s one more Hill and my heart sank my ego rose up in all of its glory and said quit you know you’re a loser just quit you’ve quit many times quit again you know and uh and this guy uh was was next to me and uh Ed Spalding he said what are you doing I said man I don’t think I can he said oh come on come on you can do it come on come on I’ll go I’ll stay I’m staying with you come on let’s go rest for a while come on and he started giving instruction he says keep your legs moving don’t let them cramp up you’re going to be all right you can make it so I’m going up this hill and I start and he goes get off the bike get off I go well we’re going he says just get off the bike take a breath you know it’s not a competition we’re dead last anyway you know so I got off I rested and we made it up over the top of the hill and we finished it now why do you suppose he was sent to me was it for me to help him I don’t have a clue I don’t get it what if I would have turned him away I I don’t know you know I think they all get to come they all get to come and let God sort them out you know I mean you know we all say that stuff but they all get to come is that her again sorry um so in closing on this thing if I get on my knees and I ask for help when it comes I shouldn’t send it away and it’s going to look a lot like you you are the mechanism God uses to work my program to con confront my Character defects to to become a better husband and a better father you’re how he works you teach me these things and I don’t understand what’s going on I don’t understand and I think I understand but I truly don’t if in the first step I admit that I’m powerless and I’m unmanageable the Second Step becomes operative I need a new manager the third step I give him the job the fourth step I list the job the fifth step I make a ceremony out of here you take these things I don’t want them anymore six and seven are two paragraphs in the book cuz there’s nothing for me to do and I don’t fully understand it anyway but I can see the Character defects in the for column of the resentment list I can pick them out pretty good and as time goes by they become clearer and clearer and clearer as I continue with 10 step and continuing inventory I can see what these things are the manager gives me my next job he says make a list of people you’ve injured and go about the process of making amends so that I can have enough self-esteem that I won’t be afraid to look at myself anymore the 11th step it would behoove me to get close to whatever it is that saved my life the 12th step is what it’s all about the rest of my life I’m going to be interacting with you I’m going to learn how to be a lover I’m going to learn how to be a husband I’m going to learn how to be a father I’m going to learn how to be close I’m going to learn to love fearlessly recklessly and let you all in the people I don’t like are the most significant because it’s touching something in me that I don’t care for in myself if I really want to be a loving true human being someday in this life then I need to let you in I can’t recover without you you are an integral part of my recovery and the closer I am to you the closer I am to God God lives in the space between you and I thank you for coming today thank you for listening to sober Sunrise if you enjoyed today’s episode please give it a thumbs up as it will help share the message until next time have a great day