The 90/10 Program: AA Speaker – Tom I. – Muscatine, IL
AA speaker Tom I. from Muscatine, IL explores the 90/10 principle of recovery: 90% service to others, 10% what you receive. A deep dive into sponsorship, twelfth-step work, and carrying the message.
Tom I. from Muscatine, Illinois has been sober since 1957, and in this AA speaker tape, he tackles one of recovery’s most critical responsibilities: working with others. Rather than offering quick tips, Tom walks through how the 12-step call actually works, why carrying the message matters more to his own sobriety than almost anything else, and what happens when AA gets comfortable, complacent, or cut off from the desperation that built the fellowship in the first place.
Tom I., an AA speaker with 60+ years of sobriety, explains that working with other alcoholics isn’t charity—it’s a selfish act of survival, as stated in the Big Book: “Nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics.” He describes the 90/10 principle: recovery is about 90% giving service and 10% receiving, and shares how early AA members carried the message door-to-door, hospital-to-hospital, prison-to-prison, in stark contrast to today’s more passive approach. Tom also discusses how the rise of formal treatment, court-ordered programs, and other “capturing systems” has changed AA’s culture, sometimes creating a defensive attitude toward newcomers instead of genuine outreach.
Episode Summary
Tom I. doesn’t start with a personal bottom story. Instead, he opens with a stark medical fact: alcoholism is a killer disease that claims most of its victims around age 52. Those who get sober and stay sober, he argues, are among the luckiest people on earth—and they didn’t get there alone. This AA speaker tape is really about one thing: why carrying the message to other alcoholics is not an act of charity. It’s the mechanism that keeps Tom and everyone like him sober.
He reads directly from the Big Book’s chapter “Working with Others,” emphasizing that nothing protects sobriety like intensive work with other alcoholics. But then he pivots to something deeper: the principle he calls the “90/10 program.” Ninety percent give. Ten percent gimme. If you don’t understand that balance, he says, you’ll miss the whole thing.
Tom paints a vivid picture of what AA looked like in the years after the 1939 publication of the Big Book and the 1941 Jack Alexander article. The entire world membership could fit in a room. When that article hit, 8,000 desperate letters came in from every direction. Traveling salesmen hopped in cars and started meetings in small towns, prisons, and backwoods. One of the first AA meetings in North Carolina happened in a segregated prison because a traveling salesman thought, “I bet there’s alcoholics in there.” No formal structure. No workshops on the steps. Just one alcoholic reaching out to another in desperation, and saying, “Come with me.”
This is where his critique of modern AA begins. Treatment centers are now routine, which Tom calls a blessing—he’s grateful for them. But something shifted in the fellowship’s attitude. Instead of desperate outreach, AA began to see treatment centers, court systems, DUI programs, and professional interventions as competitors or threats. The tone moved from “How can we help?” to “They don’t appreciate us” and “Those treatment people are getting paid to do what we do for free.” Over time, a resentment developed.
Then another shift happened: the buses started pulling up. Treatment centers would send dozens of people to meetings. The fellowship went from having to search for alcoholics to being overwhelmed by them. Some members started avoiding meetings with “all newcomers” or “a bunch of treatment patients.” Tom describes visiting a council on community problems where a city official said, “We tried Alcoholics Anonymous. They won’t show up.” The trust and cooperation that once existed between AA and other institutions began to erode.
This is the practical problem Tom is raising. When AA became passive—waiting for people to come rather than going out to find them—something essential was lost. The culture of the fellowship shifted from “carrying the message” to managing an influx of mandated attendees.
On a personal level, Tom shares what he actually does when he gets a 12-step call. He takes someone with him, usually a woman. He prays before he goes in, asking God to help him be worthy and sensitive. He doesn’t come in as an expert or a savior. He comes in as another alcoholic who’s been where the drunk is now. When he walks in, he has three goals: help the person understand they’re an alcoholic, establish that they want to stay sober (even if it’s just for today), and show them they can do it one day at a time. That’s it. He then uses a powerful story to illustrate the principle.
He was called to the home of a woman in crisis—suicidal, he believed. He couldn’t find another woman to go with him, so he asked his wife (who had never seen him drink, only heard about it through Al-Anon) to come. He was terrified she’d be repelled by what she saw. Instead, she moved right into the situation and did a “marvelous job.” That woman is sober today and feeds his wife lunch every week—she now refers to his wife as “the hero.”
Then there’s the story of the wealthy industrialist, a CEO of an international company, living in a mansion in a resort area. The man had been through every treatment center in the country, spent $300,000 on private therapists, and could articulate every theory about his own alcoholism. Tom walked in, listened to his credentials, and when the man asked what Tom could possibly tell him he hadn’t heard before, Tom said: “Probably nothing. But I want you to know two things. One, we’re here because we love you. We don’t even know you, but we love you. And I wouldn’t sell you 30 minutes of my time for what we’re doing for $300,000.” The room went very quiet. That cut through all the noise. The man got sober. That’s the power of person-to-person connection, untainted by money or authority.
Tom then discusses getting newcomers into *action*, not theory. He paints a scene: he’s painting the outside of the meeting hall. On one end of a tall ladder is a neurosurgeon. On the other end is a man who looks like he just fell out of a spaceship—wild-eyed, fidgety, clearly in acute distress. Tom hands both a paintbrush. The neurosurgeon spends the evening analyzing the Second Step. The other guy climbs the ladder, shaking, and starts painting. Over time, that “spaceship guy” got 21 years sober, graduated from Duke University’s School of Psychiatric Nursing, and managed a psychiatric hospital. The neurosurgeon drank again. The lesson: don’t philosophize with someone in acute crisis. Give them something *to do*. Get them hooked into the fellowship through action, not academia.
But Tom also insists on the importance of family. He reads from page 97 of the Big Book: even if the alcoholic doesn’t respond, don’t neglect his family. Offer them the way of life. If the family practices spiritual principles, there’s a much better chance the alcoholic will recover—and even if he doesn’t, the family finds life more bearable. Tom’s own wife is in Al-Anon, and after 33 years of continuous marriage, she told him she wouldn’t still be with him if it weren’t for Al-Anon. The family recovers together or it doesn’t recover at all.
He moves on to the practical, gritty side of working with others: dealing with baggage. He reads the entire passage from the Big Book about what helping someone might cost—sleep lost, business interrupted, money shared, phone calls at 3 a.m., drunks smashing furniture, having to call doctors or police, fights, chaos. Tom swears that he has personally experienced every single thing on that list. It’s not romantic. It’s real.
So how do you manage it? Tom gave up loaning money decades ago. It harmed both him and the alcoholic because it created resentment and false obligation. Instead, he *gives* money away—only what he can afford to lose. “I can’t get ripped off if I don’t play the game,” he says. There’s something about removing the pressure and expectation that actually returns more goodness than lending ever did.
He then introduces a concept critical to sponsorship work: *priority*. He tells of a physician who’d been sober two years. The man was called to appear before the state medical board on the same night as his two-year anniversary meeting. Tom leaned on him: “When the things you get as a result of recovery become more important than what produces recovery, your priorities are shot, my friend.” The doctor showed up that night in a tuxedo and zebra cummerbund. Tom introduced him as “the offspring of a mating between a penguin and a zebra.” The point: recovery work has to stay first, always, no matter what it seems to cost.
Finally, Tom addresses a question everyone in AA wrestles with: when you see someone headed for a slip, what do you do? Everyone recognizes the signs—behavior, attitude, declining meeting attendance. But everyone’s mystified about intervention. His home group did a workshop on this and arrived at one principle: *the level of intervention depends on the level of trust*. Just because you’re long-sober or respected doesn’t give you a license to attack or meddle. What gives you that license is whether the person trusts you. Usually it’s the sponsor. But if there’s no sponsor, you have to be careful and thoughtful.
Tom closes by talking about recovery’s three legacies: personal recovery (which 90% of meetings focus on), unity and cooperation (learning to live with others), and service (carrying the message). If recovery only means “me and mine,” he argues, it’s incomplete. True recovery means learning to live in unity, cooperation, and maximum service. And that’s where the real freedom lies.
The entire talk is grounded in Tom’s belief that alcoholism is relentless—it doesn’t matter how long you’ve been sober, it’s always one spiritual letdown away from knocking on your door again. And the only real antidote to that is not isolation, introspection, or self-improvement. It’s connection, action, and service to another alcoholic.
Notable Quotes
Nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail.
It’s the strangest kind of selfish program I have ever seen because it’s made up of about 90% give and about 10% gimme. And if I don’t get that into that kind of a balance, I’ll miss that sucker altogether.
We work with others not because we’re good folks. We’ve got a little bit more real life kind of reason. Every time I’ve ever tried to help another alcoholic, I have gained from the experience.
I need the new person at least as much, if not more, than they need me. We don’t work on people. We don’t work at people. We work with people.
When the things that you get as a result of recovery in the program become more important than what produces the recovery, your priorities are shot, my friend.
Step 12 – Carrying the Message
Big Book Study
Fellowship & Meetings
Service Work
Topics Covered in This Transcript
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- Step 12 – Carrying the Message
- Big Book Study
- Fellowship & Meetings
- Service Work
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Full AA Speaker Transcript
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We hope that you enjoy today's speaker. >> Group conscience. What time we quit?
>> 11:45. 11. >> The group conscience said 11:45.
Uh Tom Iver alcoholic >> and good morning. It's great to see you. You're looking pretty decent.
Best I can tell. It's a little early for that. I'm glad to be here.
I'm u this morning. I'm going to sort of wade into working with others. And uh I I don't want to be guilty of false advertising, but let me invite you to uh join in anytime you like.
If you something that didn't make sense or you just uh want to hear more about or less about, just give me a signal and I'll stop. I'm not one that'll tease a group and and and draw it out. So, uh it's kind of like a runaway train.
You just have to jump aboard whenever you get a chance. So, don't wait for me. Um but I would uh would uh genuinely invite you to do that.
I'm I've learned since I've been in a I'm not an expert on anything and and so I'm tonight today I'm not uh speaking as an authority on working with others about the best that I can do is tell you what I have seen and tell you what I have heard and tell you what I've come to believe and u that's essentially the kind of a of an attack that I'd like to make on this Let me just sort of sort of put one little piece of of backdrop to uh to this whole discussion. I believe without any question that that alcoholism is a killer illness. I have absolutely no question.
I've been to too many examples of the living the dying proof that it's a killer illness. And and I believe it's an illness that's tremendously formidable. Most of us who have this illness die of this illness usually tragically at about an average age of 52.
And those of us who are able to to get hold of this elusive brass ring that we call sobriety and hang on to it into a brand new way of life, I truly believe are among the luckiest people on the on the face of this earth. And and so it's an illness that's a tremendously difficult illness. It is one in which the odds are great that I'll never get into a solution and the odds are are are extremely heavy against my being able to stay if I do because it's not only a a killer illness in terms of getting here but in terms of staying here.
It's the kind of illness that's relentless in nature that once I've got it, it doesn't make any difference how long I've been sober. All I have to do is let down the spiritual defenses that protect me. And look who's knocking at my door.
This thing can knock me out in a heartbeat. It doesn't require a dilemma, a crisis, any euphoric state, absent-mindedness. All I have to do, I don't have to do anything to cause it.
All I have to do is let up on the things that keep it at bay and look out. I agree with what Danny said. the obsession is removed, but it ain't removed far.
It's reclaimable any time, and all I have to do is is let up and look who's coming back. And so, it's that kind of an illness. And so, when when we talk about working with others, I like to keep that in mind that it's not something that's going to yield to just some little cute little limicks and throwaway phrases and and to fellowship and stuff like that.
it takes a tremendously uh powerful kind of of resource to deal with this thing. And so that's the way I want to want to sort of keep that in mind when we're going the uh I'm not sure exactly where this will go. I I u I I don't want to just talk about the mechanics of how you how you do the work.
I want to I want to talk a little broader than that in terms of, you know, we're no better than the fellowship in which we serve. I don't care if I'm the best 12 stepper on earth. I'm no better than the fellowship that supports the work.
And so I can't isolate it into just what I do and how great that might be or how poor that might be. I have to connect that to what the rest of our fellowship's about. So, I want to want to I want to do a little bit on the on the specific personal level and and some more on the uh the fellowship as a whole level.
The uh Anybody got a grown-up big book? I got a little one that I can barely read with glasses. I don't want to mess one up, but I'd rather ruin a book than my eyes.
Uh yeah, the the the the the fir the first thing I'd like to just sort of visit with you about is that you usually in a meeting like this, you're talking to folk who already do it. So it's usually you're singing to the choir when you're when you when you're dealing with this kind of group, particularly get up early in the morning, do it. There's a a place.
Yeah. Great, Ron. Thank you, buddy.
when you get long of tooth in program, you also get a little bit short of vision. And and by the way, I was uh guided into this program February the 2nd, 1957. And uh by the utterly amazing by the utterly amazing grace of God working through Alcoholics Anonymous, haven't looked back since.
And that's a an absolute miracle for a a runaway dude like me to be able to anchor and stay here and find a brand new way to live. We we work with others not because we're good folks, you know. We we're not just dogooders and stuff like that who who just don't to do loving gestures and be like Mahatma Gandhi.
We've got a little bit more real life kind of of of reason. And here's what it says. I'm not going to read much to you, but just enough to sort of let you know I'm talking from something other than just my head.
That'd be very dangerous. Practical experience shows that nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail.
This is our 12th suggestion. Carry this message to other alcoholics. You can help when no one else can.
You can secure their confidence when others fail. Remember, they're very ill. And that tells me what it's about.
You know what the the the bottom line is that what I've come to know and understand is that there's no such thing as an unsuccessful effort when I try to help another alcoholic because every time I've ever done it, I have gained from the experience. So, it's a selfish activity. It's not a generous kind of missionary work.
It's got a very real life connection to how I survive. And nothing will so strengthen my hold on on recovery as active work with somebody else. strange program.
Maybe talk a little bit more about that. I'll just say it now. It's the strangest kind of selfish program I have ever seen because it's made up of of about 90% give and about 10% gimme.
And if I don't get that into that kind of a balance, I'll miss that sucker altogether. So very real reason. And then the payoff for the work is in the next paragraph.
When I do that, life will take on new meaning. To watch people recover, to see them help others, to watch loneliness vanish, to see a fellowship grow up about you, to have a host of friends. This is an experience you must not miss.
We know you will not want to miss it. Frequent contact with newcomers with each other is a bright spot of our lives. And my God, how true that is.
When I look back to all of the many things that have been rich and meaningful in my life, I guarantee you every one of them had to do with an important personal interaction with another alcoholic or a family member or whoever, but it's always based in that kind of a thing. So that's why we do it. Not because we're good folks, but it's it's u one other note that I want to just sort of hit on here on in case anybody I don't think anybody's tracking on if you happen to be tracking on books on page 100 there's a thing.
It's important enough that we read it at the close of every meeting of my home group and and it said it's it captures the spirit of how we work with with others. Here's what it says. A little short paragraph.
Both you and the new man must walk day by day in the path of spiritual progress. If you persist, remarkable things will happen. When we look back, we realize that the things which came to us when we put ourselves in God's hands were better than anything we could have planned.
Follow the dictates of a higher power and you will presently live in a new and wonderful world, no matter what your present circumstances. And to me, the most important word in that whole reading is the word with. With because that's the spirit with which we work in which we work with people.
We don't work on on people. We don't work at people. We don't work against people.
We work with people. And when it says that we must walk day by day, hand in hand, must walk day by day in this path of spiritual progress, that to me is what makes the the whole experience of working with others really mean something. It's also what what what helps me keep a tremendously important balance, and that is that I need the new person at least as much, if not more, than they need me.
I know that I say that to practically every person I a new person I work with and I know that they never believe it. My prayer is that I believe it. If I ever get to get thinking that I'm some big authority hot shot that's laying the the stuff on the guy, I'm in trouble, not the one I'm putting it on.
And so that spirit to me is tremendously important in Alcoholics. I think the biggest we ever get as a fellowship, the most noble we ever become is when one alcoholic reaches out to another alcoholic with that common bond of desperation mixed with some hope. Best we ever get.
And so that essentially is u is is is the u is the thing there. There's a place on 89 and I I like little harmless sounding uh paragraphs. The p place on 89 right before it right after it talks about why we do this stuff that I want to spend a little bit of time on that that might be kind of a surprising direction in this thing.
It says perhaps you're not acquainted with any drinkers who want to recover. I sometimes wonder if any of them want to recover I work with but they keep me sober but may not know any. You can easily find some by asking a few doctors, ministers, priests or hospitals.
They will be only too glad to assist you. Don't start out as an evangelist or reformer. Unfortunately, a lot of prejudice exists.
You will be handicapped if you arouse it. Ministers and doctors are competent and you can learn from them if you wish. But it happens that because of your own drinking experience, you can be uniquely useful to other alcoholics.
So cooperate, never criticize. To be helpful is our only is our only aim. I want to spend a little time on that because it it's that thing I was mentioning in in the beginning of of that we our our work has to be in the context of of of the fellowship in which we serve.
It it's like for example it like I belong to a strong home group and and it is a strong group. Anything that Alcoholics Anonymous does is done in my group in an organized planned delivered style. So it's a strong group that's about the primary purpose.
That's the name of it. Primary purpose. But that group is no better than the group next door because that's part of us.
You know in our traditions it talks about groups being autonomous. Autonomous does not mean isolated because I'm a part of a community and alcoholics will do as well or as poorly. So I'm a part of a chain and so it's not good enough for me to have a good strong group.
The operative question is well what kind of a neighbor am I to the next group? Do we help the group? It's as much a violation to sort of rise arrogantly above and say I've got the best group in the world.
Well good for you. What about the group next door? And so it's not enough just to be sort of self-satisfied with what I got.
So I'm I'm part part of of that world. Let me let me talk a little bit about just and I I try to capsule it as much as I can because Ron's going to hurt me if I go past 11:45. Little history.
What one what are the now before my memory gets completely gone let me let me reflect just a little bit on on the history I was very fortunate in that I came into alcoholics synonymous you know we had we had two essential real movements into alcoholics anonymous one was that trickle that went in up through 35 to 39 you know in 40 40 you know when that first hundred was sort of wandering around you yeah Those guys don't amaze me too much. I met a lot of them and and those guys don't amaze me too much. I'd have fit in that crowd.
You get a bunch of drunks just wandering around. Don't know where they're going. Ain't nobody in charge.
You ain't got nothing written. It's just like my old drunken matches I used to get. I'd have fit right in.
I'd have I'd have made a good first hundred guy. I'm glad they were there. But those aren't the guys that really blow my mind when I think about the heroic rising to the occasion that occurred in Alcoholics.
That has its value. The guys that really mean something to me and some of it's personal because they're the ones that carried the message to me were the fellas and gals gal later to be gals who remember when the Jack Alexander article hit and Fultoner and and the first real public information the book hit the stands but it was more the public sharing about our fellowship. Not so much the book that did it, but it was the public sharing.
And when that jackal, if you picture this, the the entire membership of Alcoholics Anonymous is no greater than what's sitting right here on a good day. I'm not sure that hundred were ever sober at the same time. They anyway, they they were they were that was it.
I mean, you picture this now. We're Alcoholics Anonymous in the whole world. The Jack Alexander article hits the street and right away 8,000 desperate pleas for help came in from every corner of of of the of the country and probably the world.
Suppose that happened to us in Busketine, Iowa, and we were it. What would you do? Well, my God, just think of what I I think of that.
Think of what happened when that that bunch of people rose to the occasion and started to do what was required to get Alcoholics Anonymous a field in this to to deal with this illness. And traveling salesmen, I met some of the guys who traveled into my state when I was struggling trying to get a a group started. Traveling salesman would would stop in and visit groups and start groups.
The first AA meeting by by the way, just for a little anecdotal pleasure, the first AA meeting in the state of North Carolina was in what back then in the old separate but equal days, it was a black population prison. The first meeting ever done, a traveling salesman was in town and he got to thinking in his brilliant alcoholic mind, I bet there's some alcoholics in that prison. So he went over there and said, "You mind if I talk to these folks?" And the guy said, "Oh, have at it.
Go get them." That was the first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. They didn't become a group then, but there's a group there today. But isn't that something?
That's the way a started. Somebody stopped by Musketine hour or wrote a letter or something. Tremendously important effort in working with others.
Equally important were the people who planted the flag in Musketine or Deuke or Yuma, Arizona because some alcoholic with just a gleam of hope said, "I think I'll try." Planted the flag and hung on. Now, I was no hero, but I had the mixed blessing of trying to start Alcoholics Anonymous in a city and going to meetings by myself, wondering if I'm the only alcoholic in that whole city. Of course, I wasn't.
But those were the people who carried the message to me and who who really gave me a feel for that kind of character that that was alcoholics back anonymous back then. During those days, they uh shoot, I got four hours of sermon left and I'm going to run out of time here in a hurry. We we the characteristic that always stands out in my mind back then, we were not a studious bunch then.
Not at all. We're doing more workshops here this weekend about the steps than existed in the whole world the first five years or so. We didn't do stuff like that.
Now, we talked about the book. I'm not sure how much we read it, but we talked about it a great deal. There was never any organized approach to doing the steps.
You got hold of it and you flew by the seat of your pants and you put it together by chance is about the way it happened. If it happened, the characteristic of the fellowship was that it was intense active work with each other. And you know, today I get once in a while I get a 12step call.
I could just kiss the drunk when I get one. It it it's it's it's it's almost an endangered species. It still exists, but not much about best I can tell.
We we don't count easy in aa we we move a lot but the best I can tell just from observation is somewhere around 75 to 80% of our fellowship have never participated in a 12step call either as a consumer or a provider that whole experience has been missed by the overwhelming majority of our fellowship that's one of the reasons I want to bring this kind of thing up because I think it impacts directly on how we work with others today. And so that was characteristic and and so it was a it was a it was a a a wild and woolly time in a lot of ways. Not a lot of structure.
I never went to a big book group for the first 15 20 years I was sober because they didn't exist. There was no such thing. And and so it was a a much raw kind of thing actionoriented.
I've had three 12step calls in one day. Now I don't get much more than that in a year. So it was that kind of a period where working with others was the name of the game.
Characteristic was that every single person almost who came into Alcoholics Anonymous came in as a direct result of an alcoholic reaching out under unbelievable circumstances and saying, "Hey, come with me." very personal level very it it produces a very high level of loyalty to that and that's significant when we when we look look at working with others there there was something that happened and I tell you in front I'm not mad at anybody I'm I'm well I'm mad at some folks but I'm not in what I'm about to talk about I'm not mad at anybody I'm not here to throw bricks at anything in the world I really believe that most of the problems that we encounter and endure in Alcoholics Anonymous are self-imposed, not visited on us by somebody else. You know, in the book, it makes it very clear that we can handle anything if we're in spiritually good condition and and the world around us won't eat us alive. And and our problems are of our own making.
They come from inside is is my belief. I say that because I want I want to talk about a thing that I think had a lot of of of impact on our fellowship when when when formal treatment started to become routinely available in this country. Now I've never been to to treatment.
I predated that but well I mean it was somewhere but it sure wasn't in the world I lived in. I' I'd never heard of it and it just practically did not exist. And then treatment came along and I thank God for it because I know many people for whom it has genuinely obviously been a real influence in getting into recovery.
So I thank God for it. Thank God that I saw a day when when good sound treatment was available almost demand any on demand anywhere in this country and I am thankful for that. the uh but when that happened there was an interesting kind of thing that happened to us in AA rather than greeting a new friend we did at first we were really enamored of that we were impressed with it that many of us went to work in the field of it you know it was a it was a a thing that rose as a friend but their developed NAA more than an undercurrent it was a very discernable kind of feeling in aa of discomfort with this whole thing that somehow these folks were doing our work that they were replacing the kinds of active reaching out stuff that we used to do and we were frustrated about it.
We got some resentments about the fact that it looked like people were getting paid big bucks to do what we were doing free. So we started getting an attitude about that stuff. And over time that attitude worsened.
Yeah. And well and not only a treatment but there was a whole variety of stuff that developed in in in our country. I call it the capturing ethic.
you know it I don't that may not translate into much but we we we still have we developed a lot of sort of systems to capture people who are alcoholics docks for example you know most states have a drunk dock program they don't call it that they they call it something else but that's what it is drunk dock program I've sponsor a couple of them and uh lawyers got a They call it PALS in my state. I'm not sure what it stands for, but it probably doesn't feel like PALS. When you get captured, you're about to lose your law license, but that that's what they call it.
Drunk drivers. My god, drunk driving related stuff has become a growth industry in this country with the charges and things that are heaped on top of it. So, on and on, you know, that that most everybody's got a sort of a capturing deal.
Well, what that did, it looked like to me na was that over a short period of time, our real desperate need to go find drunks was gone. We didn't have to go look for drunks, man. We had bus loads of them showing up at our meetings.
I had a group down treatment center started down in a little old town I live in and there was a a friend of mine had had uh started a group called a newcomers group. He didn't have five minute five members and uh he called me one day and he said man we got a problem. I said what?
He said, "My God, we opened up last week and a bus pulled up and 47 people came in. Five greeters and 47 visitors." He said, "Man, they sucked up all the coffee. We can't feed that crowd.
Yo, then they won't give." He said, "They tell them at the treatment center, don't give. We consider that part of your treatment." Well, hell, the people buying the coffee didn't consider it part of the treatment. And so if you see the the the the sort of dilemma that comes from that where you've got people where reaching out to them is a part of what our lives depend on, but all at once we're overwhelmed.
And these guys didn't want to be ugly and unkind to folk coming, but what do you do? And so it was that sort of thing that started to occur where not only did you not have to go look for drunks, but we started to develop I say we broadly but but we started to develop a sort of a defensive attitude about that. So that yeah, I've heard people say, "Well, I don't want to go to that meeting.
It's all newcomers or they got all that bunch of patients from from a treatment unit." You know, they're not sincere. I had a 35year member to tell me that. See, something has gone sadly a miss when that starts to become our frame of mind about new people.
So the whole notion of working with others becomes a real challenge e becomes a real challenge and some things come spill out of that that are well we could go on a long time about that but I think you sort of get the picture of at least what's troubling to this guy and whether it's troubling you or not that's your business said but it's troubling to me deeply so um some things come out of that that shape shape our relationship to the world around us and I think cause real trouble when we see ourselves working with others. There was a time in this country when Alcoholics Anonymous when it became known was viewed as the answer for alcoholism and there was no competition with anything else. The other day I was listening to some C-SPAN.
I think there was some program and folks were talking about alcoholism and addiction and in a one-hour program they were talking about the things to do. Neither Alcoholics Anonymous nor Narcotics Anonymous was mentioned one time. friend of mine is a social worker who I don't know what he does but he he doesn't look like he does anything.
He he just sort of wanders around like but he went down to uh went down to a neighboring town and he's a good solid member and but he was there professionally and he sat in you know how I'd imagine Musketines got councils that deal with community problems and he sat in on a council dealing with community problems and thing came up about uh about alcoholic about alcoholics in the community and He he did he he he stayed anonymous but he said have you ever thought of inviting somebody from AA to come sit in with you so you can be acquainted with that resource and the lady who was chairing the mission here what she said lady who was chairing the meeting said oh yeah we have tried them they won't show up a long ways from you call me anytime time. You call me at 3:00 in the morning. Anytime anybody reaches out, I want the hand to be there.
Oh yeah, we tried them. They won't show up. The part of what happens when we start backing off and getting complacent and negative about this thing is that we lose the trust and confidence.
In 1960 in Long Beach, I I wasn't I was in the program, but I that's I couldn't make that one. was awful poor. I couldn't get to California.
And uh if you look at the program of the 1960 convention, the it wasn't the official theme, but the theme of it in my mind was let's be friendly with our friends. And that program was overwhelmingly loaded with people who were monumental friends to Alcoholics Anonymous. Monumental friends.
Don't answer me, but just think. Think of think of the towering figures that you know who play a prominent role in support and cooperation with AA today. It sets a scene in in which we work that handicaps us severely.
I do a lot of work in corrections and uh what I find you know we a lot of time we talk about correction people having a bad attitude or negative attitude or not not wanting to help guys. What I find is the overriding attitude is that they sort of dismiss us and so and they sort of relegate us into seeing us as like sort of a quasi recreational religious activity. and not taken very seriously.
So we met a group of us last night met about you trying to work a relationship in a correctional facility so we go at it in a more substantial kind of way and and communicate the fact that this is an important activity. It's not some little throwaway thing. So the uh I stop just saying anybody anything on that at all you're welcome jump in.
I'm going to plow on if you don't. Okay, I'm gone. If in u in working with others, I want to just sort of get into a to a tra trajectory with this in in the work that we do.
Our book, the most detailed set of instructions that exist in Alcoholics Anonymous are in the chapter called Working with Others. Anybody says they don't know how to do a 12step call, get the book. I mean, it'll tell you what to say, when to say it, when to burp, what time to leave, who to I mean, if it's if it can be done to a drunk, it's in there.
And it talks about an awful lot of stuff. And I guarantee I haven't found anything in there to be false. So, uh, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on the mechanics of it.
I want to talk about some of the things that surround it. Uh, I just tell you this about 12step work from the way I like to practice it. When I when I do a a 12step call, I like to take somebody with me.
I can't say that I'm religiously uh committed, that that's the only way I ever do it. Sometimes ain't nobody um that I can get a hold of at the time. I'll give you an example.
I had a gal that called my house and uh I was doing something and the wife said said, "You better come quick. This is a bad case." And it was a gal that had had been in our group a short time and and got her on the phone and she really was in in bad shape. I I I honestly believe she was suicidal.
And um so I told her, I said, "You think you can hang about noon?" I said, "Can you hand hang on to 5:00?" I knew I wasn't going to wait that long, but I didn't want her to be watching the door. And she said, "I think I can." I said, "All right, hang on." So I started calling, couldn't find a woman. It was right in the middle of the day, and I couldn't find one.
And uh so my wife started to go to the shop as usual. And I said, "Hold on, girl. I may need you." And well, I thought she left.
came back and uh she said, "You really need me for something?" I said, "Yeah, you may need to protect your husband." That sounds like cuz I I made uh I made the first 12step call I ever made on a woman back when we didn't have any women. Uh I went by myself and that was the last one I ever went on by myself. I guarantee you I took some I took my mother went on more 12step calls than most members.
sister, girlfriend, hitchhiker, anybody I can find, I'm going to take me a woman. And uh so I'm no different now. And uh so I I said, "Yeah, you you may need to protect me." And so here we went.
Now, my Sally, my wife's an alanine, but she has never I was sober 11 years when we married. She'd never been around active alcoholism. She's been around some goofy behavior, but it was sober.
and she never been around active. And you know, I I'm thinking all the way over there, how's she going to react? Cuz mo, you know, people are either will either move into us or they're repelled by what they see.
And I honest to God didn't know what what that girl would do, but I was watching her. And so we moved went in and it was a typical what you'd look drunken pigsty. and and and so I watched her and man, she moved right in and did a marvelous job.
I I've never had a better partner on a 12step call. And so, you know, normally I like to take and by the way, the girl's sober now and and u and she tell you what, she only hardly speak to me. I am the hero.
We're over there to save her mother. H means my wife feeds her every week. Go to lunch at some spiffy joint.
So, so, so I like to do that and I usually do and and what I do normally when I walk into it on a 12step call, I do one simple thing. I before I do anything important, I do it did this morning before I did this. I always stop and pray and just ask God to help me be worthy of what I'm about and to be sensitive to what I'm dealing with and to try to be helpful if I can.
Something like that. so I can get equipped to go in and uh the uh thing I I'm not going to go into a lot of mechanic. Let me tell you one other just story that I think makes a point in a way.
I had a call. I live in a in a in a and I live in the bluecollar section, but I live in a pretty posh resort area down around Pinehurst, Pinehurst, North Carolina, US Open. Come spend money.
I It's a great area. It's beautiful. And and I got a call one day from u I didn't know the place but when I went over I saw what it was.
It was absolutely a magnificent mansion of a place over there. And and a call was on a guy that was he's head of an international industry and and I'm not talking about loaded. I'm talking about untold loaded.
This guy's top top dude. So I I took a buddy with me. I we went in.
He's playing Sinatra music, you know, and I can handle Sinatra just fine. So I listened with him a minute and he said, "You want me to tell you about myself?" I said, "Won't you do that?" So So he sort of gave me his veita and uh he said, "I'm an alcoholic. I know I am." He said, "I've been treated by every place in this country that I can think of that I just got out of one just a while back.
Cost me 30,000 bucks. I've talked to every expert that I've ever heard of. The last guy that did what you're doing here today ripped me off for $300,000 before I got away from him.
And uh he said, "What do you suppose you can tell me that I haven't already heard?" Yeah. The book says you'll intuitively know how to handle situations. I'm no rocket scientist.
But when he said that, I thought a minute. I said, 'Well, probably nothing. I said, ' But let me tell you two things I want you to know.
One is that we're here because we love you. We don't even know you, but we love you. And I wouldn't sell you 30 minutes of my time for what we're doing for $300,000.
Very quiet room. Very quiet room because that cut through all of that junk and garbage. This isn't for sale.
You can't buy it at any cost. Guy's still sober. Guy's still sober.
That's no magic. But it's it's about sticking to that fundamental thing of who we are. We're not a rich guy and a poor guy.
We're two guys going down the tube except for hanging together. That's what's important. Last time I saw him, I met him in the DFW airport down at Dallas.
And uh he was on the way to Aapulco to play and I think I was on the way to Sage Brush, Kansas or somewhere. I so I don't know where but I was going somewhere. The uh couple of places I I just want to kind of Well, I want to talk about four areas if I I think I got time.
We'll talk about four areas of working with area with with with others that that I think are critically important. One is um is of course what we're talking about right now. And this business that 12step call doesn't require any particular magic.
It doesn't require any particular shaking folk up. It doesn't require an automatic response of let's go to detox. It sometimes does.
What it requires is is to communicate heartto-he heart with another alcoholic. And and and if I can do that, I can do okay. And and so I want to I want to I want to push that.
And then but I want to talk about family a little bit too. When I do a 12step call there there's about there's three things that I want to try to get across to a guy that that I'd like for him to understand when I when I leave there. one, I would like for him to understand that he's an alcoholic.
I'd like to help him understand that the uh best I can. I'd like for him to know that. I I would like to get it clearly established that he wants to stay sober hopefully forever, but he doesn't have to say that.
But I want him to make as strong a commitment to wanting to stay sober as I can pull out of him. And the third thing I want to get across to him is that he can do that for one day at a time. If I can get that across to the person, school's out.
That is all I want to get done. And then when I get him into a meeting, I want him to well surely I want him to get into a group where he's going to find what I've advertised. And that's why my group is so important to me.
But when I get him into that u right off the bat, I don't want to get him into steps and I don't want to get him into book. I want to get him into action. I I tell you one one other example.
I I thought it was just just great. I was I was helping paint the building where we were meeting and and I was a boss man. I I had two guys, one on either end of the building.
It really really really something. One of them was a brain literally a brain surgeon. He was a neurosurgeon and uh and then the the guy that was to be on the second ladder came in and this guy walks in and you've probably seen him.
Not him, but you've seen his double. He looked like a very poor replica of Columbbo. You know that you the guy with the where you hid your booze beer.
And this guy come old sagging trench coat and I'm talking about crazy as a loon. I mean that sucker was crazy. And he was just all over the place fidgeting, jumping and and I said, "Come on in.
You're in the right place." They came in. I looked him over. I knew I didn't need to do any Freudian counseling on that guy.
And I I said uh greeted him and I said, "You know how to paint?" He said, "Paint? Paint?" I said, "Yeah." Hell, you're a natural. the way you're shaking that and said and he said he said I'll try and uh he was good too.
I mean just you you didn't want to expect it but and uh I said can you climb that ladder? Oh no no no. I said come on I catch you if you fall get on up there.
So if you picture that big old hall about the size of this and one end I got a neurosurgeon and the other one I got a guy just fell out of a spaceship or something I he was a bad looking dude. What do you think the rest of that story is? One of those guys died drunk.
One of them sober today. Well, the point is that it don't much matter what you got. The guy, the neurosurgeon, was trying to analyze the second step the last time I talked with him with what the relative definitions of powerlessness and power meant.
The other guy got out of his spaceship and and and he went to painting. You know, it's it's that thing of intuitively knowing what to do. And you you don't have to be a brain.
just sort of sort of sort of try to do the right thing and try to do what makes sense. And sticking a paintbrush in that guy's hand was the most sensible thing for him to do. And man, he started to settle down.
That guy is now 21 years sober, I believe it is. He uh something else. He graduated from the Duke University School of Psychiatric Nursing.
He needed some kind of psychiatric stuff. managed a psychiatric hospital for a long time. It's an amazing thing.
That's so you just never know, you know, but but what you give to somebody is is so important that they can connect to it. Um so very much oriented am I toward getting somebody active so that they start feeling a sense of getting connected, getting hooked in, and then we got the rest of our lives to plum the depths of the program. But I want to get him into action first so he can start feeling decent about about where he is and like he's in the right place.
The the the family there's a place there's a place in on 97 that talks about and I'll just refer to it. Though an alcoholic does not respond, there's no reason why you should neglect his family. You should continue to be friendly to them.
The family should be offered your way of life should they accept and practice spiritual principles. There is a much better chance that the head of the family will recover. Let me say it again.
A family should be offered a way of life. Should they accept and practice spiritual principles, there's a much better chance that the head of the family will recover. And even though he continues to drink, the family will find life more bearable.
You know, and I know people who have come to Alanon for years, Sally, who who whose whose whose partners still drink or who are no longer here. and they uh very very real dynamic program of living in Alanon the uh sometimes you if if if I don't watch it I'll forget the family and and very very important to for me to keep in mind that alcoholism is a family illness it's not something that that occurs in isolation and it doesn't recover in isolation I'm a part of a package And when I get right down to nitty-gritty to what's truly important in my life, I'll guarantee you immediate family is top of the list. And so it's a tremendously important part of this thing.
And so I I want I like war stories better than philosophy. I I tell you one other thing that I tell you about success cases. I'm not going to tell you about a few failures, but we had a guy the first new member that came into our group.
Oh, God knows he the most down, beat up little old guy. Just the most Jesus, he just made me tired. I he and first first night he came, I said he told me he got banged in there for DWI and uh I said, "Well, how'd you get over here if you're not driving?" And he said, "Well, my lady friend brought me." I said, "Where is she outdoors?" I said, "Well, my god, man.
Go get her." He said, "She won't come." I said, "Shoot." So I went out this mousy. Well, she wasn't little, but she's a mousy. She was wellnourished girl, but she was she was she was mousy though.
And I said, "Come on in here." And she said, "Oh, no, no, no. I'll just wait." I said, "Oh, malarkey. Come on here, girl.
You got to." So, she comes and standed over there and started leaving. I said, "Now, we got a speaker meeting Thursday and I want you to be here." She said, "Okay, I'll be here." I said, 'Well, since you're coming, how about bringing something? And she, what do you mean?
We have world class refreshments at our meeting. I mean, we eat, we pig out. And I said, "Oh, bring a apple pie." The good news and the bad news.
She brought it, but I swear to God, that was the worst apple pie I ever ate in my life. And she had that old drunk boy, fellow hers, married now, peeling the apple. You know, and that thing, I swear to God, you cut it.
Dust came up off of it. Well, I I run my mouth so much I had to eat some of that. Well, they're still here.
Yeah. He's our gsr. She is almost the uh the uh grand wizard of of uh Alanon.
I mean the girl family is important. You a tremendously important part of this deal. You I have a a you tell I'm an unbiased person but I've I have a fairly strong bias about well-ordered groups, structured groups, and I also like groups that have diversity.
I I I like I personally and and I guess I cut my teeth that way. I like a group that has closed meetings for sure. I believe in closed meetings.
I think they are vital because they're the ground in which an alcoholic can learn to trust. And I get awfully awfully nervous. I go to places where they have nothing but open meetings.
And as far as I'm concerned, that's a major copout because it cuts off that tremendously important place where an alcoholic can get out those things that he just would not share otherwise. So, I'm a great believer in closed meetings, but I am an equally strong believer in open meetings. They're not the same thing.
And open meetings are where we can have our family and friends share with us. Where we can introduce people to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. We didn't get sick in isolation.
We don't get sober. How many times you see folks will get in here and get so caught up in this way of life that they get thinking this is the only thing that matters and the grass is not cut and the kids are not fed and all of that stuff. tremendously important that the principles of this program be in all of my life.
So, I'm I'm a great believer in those kind of things because and and and just what I said, the family that recovers together stays together. My wife and I just celebrated 33 years of continuous marriage and she'll tell you today, even though she never saw me drink, if it weren't for for Alanon, she would not be with me today. And instead, we've had a pretty dogone good marriage.
Hope for that girl. It's getting better. You got so awfully important in uh as usual, I'm going I'm going to cut myself short on some stuff and and maybe just sort of tease you with them a little.
I want to talk about dealing with the baggage. Dealing with baggage. And if you think of it, you know what I'm talking about.
I think all of us who come in here, just about all of us, no, all of us who come in here bring a certain amount of baggage with us. whatever it may be. You know, like the people who come in and they've been mandated in to to to come here.
You know, that's some baggage in and of itself. You know, the uh the the the person who comes in and like most of us are in either social difficulty, legal difficulty, family, financial, whatever. But most of us have some very troubling difficulties in important areas of our life.
And uh there's a I can't read the book. There's a a little place. Let me just Well, let me just highlight what it says.
Well, no, I'll read it. It's better. He may be talking about how you deal with baggage.
He may be broke and homeless. If he is, you might try to help him by getting a job or give him a little financial assistance, but you should not deprive your family or creditors of money they should have. Perhaps you'll want to take the man into your home for a few days, but be sure you use discretion.
Be certain he will be welcomed by your family and that he's not trying to impose upon you for money, connections, or shelter. Permit that and you only harm him. You'll be making it possible for him to be insincere.
You may be aiding in his destruction rather than than uh his recovery. Never avoid these responsibilities. Be sure you're doing the right thing if you assume them.
Helping other others is foundation stone of your recovery. Kindly acting at once in a while is not enough. And then it it lists the stuff that can happen when you're working with folks.
It may mean the loss of many nights sleep, great interference with your pleasures, interruptions to your business. It may mean sharing your money in your home, counseling frantic wives and relatives, innumerable trips to police courts, sanitariums, hospitals, jails, and asylums. Your telephone may jangle at any time of the day or night.
Your wife may sometimes say she is neglected. A drunk may smash the furniture in your home or arm burn a mattress. You may have to fight with him if he is violent.
Sometimes you'll have to call a doctor and administer sedatives under his direction. Another time you may have to send for the police or an ambulance. Occasionally you will have to meet such conditions.
I'm here to tell you that there is absolutely nothing, not one word, not one syllable on that page that I haven't personally experienced. So that's not rhetoric. That's the fact of life when you're dealing with active alcoholism.
And not a single one of those things have have has escaped. I don't know if you can call it by attention, but it that there's I won't read it, but there's another place in there that So, you got the baggage. So, how do you deal with that?
All of us have to make judgments about this. I guarantee you anybody that's working with other people, you run into this quandry about when do you step in, when do you help out, and how much do you help out? Very important decision.
The uh the thing of well, I I'll just I'll just give you give you give you a couple examples. But one, I quit many many years ago. I quit loaning money.
Used to loan it, but it was extremely aggravating to me and even more aggravating to the alcoholics I loaned it to because most time it disappeared. And just what it said there, I was really doing them more harm than good. And so I made a decision and I've stuck with it.
I made one deviation one time and regretted it. But I don't loan money. I give money away.
and I give away what I am willing to lose. I can't get ripped off if I don't play the game. If I give somebody money, they can't take advantage of me.
If I loan them money and put expectations, what I do is let them own my mind for a while. And so, I don't loan money. I give money.
And I swear to God, I think I get more back giving it than I did loaning it. There's something about pressure and how we react to it or something. So I don't loan money.
Um the uh this I want to tell you one other little little incident that happened with one of these capturing programs and this business about what what I think it takes in working with somebody. You know, most of us come in here with motives other than purity. You know, I mean, very few of us come in here and our driving force is, "Jesus, I want to be sober and be a wonderful person for the rest of my life." I have yet to work with one like that.
Everybody I've ever worked with has got a ton of baggage and and uh and uh it's it's what we're running away from, not what we're running to. and and so it's always a delicate thing of getting past that into some ownership. I personally don't care what anybody's motives are.
I couldn't care less. It's none of my business. I could not care less.
I don't even entertain sincerity and whether that's a a fact or not. I don't even think about it. Don't care about the motives.
What I found is that most people who come into AA get exactly what they're looking for. And if we can't help them focus that into the objective that's going to save them from the the the the illness, then they're going to be in trouble. Cuz most people who've got motives that are material in nature when they get through when they get what they gone, they got nothing to hold on to and we'll usually lose them after they get it.
So it's important transition. The the thing one just quick story share with you. I had a physician that I just taken on.
He was sober two years, moved into town. Wilder than a rabbit. That guy was just wild.
And uh I was talking with him a little bit and he was getting ready to celebrate two years and he and uh we were having breakfast one morning. I was leaning on him a little bit and I said, "Well, big deal coming up for you at the meeting this week." He said, "What?" He always liked he's just in awe of everything. Say good morning.
Oh yeah. And and so I I said, "Well, it's two years for you, dummy." And and he said, "Oh my god, I forgot." And he said, "I can't be there." I said, "Well, that's too bad. Why can't you be there?" And he said, "Well, I've got this command performance from the state medical society, and they're the people who own my license.
If I don't show up, they're going to know I'm drunk. I have got to go. And I said, "Well, it really is too bad, but it it certainly helps me to to fix the agenda for our next meeting." And he said, "What's that?" I said, "It'll be about priorities." And uh he said, "What do you mean?" I said, 'Well, it's pretty important that when the things that you get as a result of recovery in the program become more important than what produces the recovery, your priorities are shot, my friend.
And the he uh the old boy just turned gray. I mean, he caught the gravity of it and he just turned gray and he said, "I swear, Tom, I don't know what I'll do, but I'll be there." And that night, the anniversary night, he came in in a tuxedo with a zebra cumber bun and and tie, I guess you what it was. And I introduced him to everybody as the offspring of the mating of a penguin and a zebra.
And we had a great time and then he went on to the to the thing. That's that's priority. You see, if I can't help somebody get that kind of thing and that business of working with folks from the capturing ethic, whether it's a dock or a driver's license guy, very important to help somebody get through that compliance with that into ownership of recovery.
The U so the baggage is there and it's our task to help folks deal with that in a in a responsible kind of way. I I just leave this to think about and and be glad to chat on on break or whatever, but and maybe just thinking about it would be uh would be good enough. Everybody here, I guarantee you knows, alcoholic or not, you know, when you see somebody that's headed for trouble, you know it.
You can see it. You see it in attitude. You see it in behavior.
You see it in meeting attendance. You see it in a thousand ways and everybody recognizes it when they see it, but everybody is equally mystified about what to do about it. Equally mystified.
And you know, we did a little a little workshop. I'll just give you the bottom line of we did a little workshop in my home group a while back and and we were talking about this issue for one and what we arrived at was that the the level of intervention depends on the level of trust. Just because I'm the oldest guy around there doesn't give me a license to attack the guy.
Just because he may listen to me doesn't give me a license. What gives me a license is the level of trust. Often it's the sponsor.
It usually is the sponsor, but sometimes there is no sponsor. So what do you do? And so that's what we wound up doing is that that the level of trust is what der determines whether it is help or meddling or attacking.
A very very critical sensitive thing that has a lot to do with people getting through those things. And we talk about working with others. is not all on a 12step call.
It's what happens in that first year. You know, most people can make it for a while and then when the reality starts to set in and the going gets a little rough, we start losing folks. So, working with others is critically important.
And I just leave that to think about a little bit. And I I don't know, getting new folks into action. I I'm not quarreling with anything, but in you you hear references a lot about service sponsors and I even the sponsorship pamphlet has a mention of it, but that that doesn't necessarily make it the gospel just because it's in a pamphlet.
It's uh not for me anyway. I'm not an advocate or or practitioner of of service sponsorship. My personal belief is that recovery encompasses three legacies.
And unfortunately, better than 90% of our meetings deal with only the first legacy of recovery. The overwhelming majority of our meetings are about me and mine and how I'm doing. And I would submit to you that a recovery that lives in those parameters is a one that sells itself awfully short.
Because if I can't learn to live in unity and in cooperation with the people around me, there's not much recovery there. If I can't carry this into my workplace and into my home and into my community, yeah, I'm not a person that's given freedom. I'm somebody that's given servitude here.
And so very important to me to do that. And if I can't learn that thing I mentioned in the beginning that that my belief that it's a strange kind of a program. It's about 10% gimme and about 90% give.
And if I don't get to that so that I learn the joy that comes from being of maximum service. Shoot man I'm missing a grand thing. So helping folks get into it and uh I don't want to make Ron mad.
Y'all been a great bunch. Thanks a lot. >> Thank you for listening to Sober Sunrise.
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