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We hope that you enjoy today's speaker. All right. Uh without further ado, uh carrying this message, recovered versus recovering, uh Jonathan.

>> Hey, I'm Jonathan. I'm alcoholic. Um, thank you so much, Scott, for that message.

Um, I, uh, yeah, I wanted to thank Patrick and Dave for getting everything set up. It's been a real, um, me and Marsha have had a blast since we've been here. Um, you know, I'm I'm honored and and humbled because um like Scott said, I have I have lots of heroes NA and um and Chris and Peter have been very instrumental in in in my sobriety and um more recently Rich and um like I said, Scott's done a great job and one of my biggest heroes, Marsha, will speak on Saturday.

So, um, when me and Marcia were flying over from Houston to Liberia, we were lucky enough to sit in first class and there was a couple sitting in front of us that were bickering back and forth. And the husband told the wife it's not my fault that you're so old and can't hear. And then she would say something back to him.

And this went on and on for probably a half hour. Then finally, we heard the the wife tell the husband, "You know, this medication that I'm on, it says that alcohol is not contraindicated with what I'm taking." So me and Marca both leaned into each other and and just said, "Please God, let them have a drink." you know, so they ordered their Bloody Marys or whatever. It was the morning flight and um and it was almost instant.

The wife looked over the husband and said, "Aren't these eggs delicious?" Husband was like, "You know, something else nice." And you know, it just switched like that. And I thought, what a good example of what alcohol does for me and does to me. You know, it's a good introduction to the to the workshop that we were going to come to.

Um, my sobriety date is May 13th of 2008. And, um, I have a home group. I actually have two home groups.

So, I have an alcoholics anonymous home group, carry this message at 6:00 p.m. on Monday evenings in Austin. If anyone's ever in Austin, Texas, I also have a cocaine anonymous home group, which is Freedom in the Solution on Saturday nights at 7:00 in Georgetown, Texas.

Welcome to come to both. Um, I'm sponsored and I sponsor a lot of guys and um and I've been very active in my own recovery since May 13th of 2008. So, I'm very honored to be here.

um you know, Chris or whoever was responsible for giving me this kind of um divisive topic of recovered versus recovering. I'm not I'm really not that interested in in um in sitting up here and and telling you what my opinion is on what adjective you should use before you say you're an alcoholic. Um what I'm going to try to do is is talk a little bit about what I was like, what happened, and what I'm like now.

and and kind of relate it to my own experience rather than any kind of opinion. Um, which is the way that this thing has worked out for me since the beginning anyway. When I get to lay my own experience alongside what's in the big book, then I have more movement internally than if I just receive information.

Um, you know, I was born I was born and raised in Texas and um and realized at a very young age that I felt separate separate from um you know my sister raised in the same house, ate the same food, lived with the same parents and it's totally normal. Um, but I had this kind of low low-level anxiety of people, um, of situations. There's no way that that kid could have grown up to the man that I am today, sitting in front of you all because I did not like talking to groups.

I did not feel comfortable looking at people in the eye. Um, and kind of like Scott, I had no reason to feel that way. My parents were very supportive.

They believed in me. My alcoholism is not causal. Um there were no circumstances that happened as a child that caused me to drink too much, you know.

Um I first started drinking when I was about 14 or 15 years old. It was um Bartles and James wine coolers. had them in my uh I know there's people that remember those.

Had them in my closet. Yeah. Um you know, and very quickly started, you know, mounting some consequences and they were reasonable consequences that I could kind of discard and keep going at that point.

But but I never really got that far into the drinking with impunity thing. I um I it didn't get my attention enough to let me, you know, consider stopping, but things happened fairly quickly when I put alcohol in my body. Um like I had said before, I I I was always I was always wanting to to to to fit in.

Even though I would act aloof and act like I didn't care, I always wanted to fit in. And I was I didn't really the popular crowd didn't really like me cuz I was in the the band growing up and then the band people didn't like me because I was kind of popular and I just was um never really could fit in and um and alcohol fixed that. Alcohol fixed that.

Um, you know, I I went ahead and graduated from high school with without too many. I mean, there's a couple of total cars and everything like that, but but I went to um I went to a a military college in South Carolina, uh, an allmale school that that I think that um, you know, based on being out now 25 years, seems to produce alcoholics. Um there's lots of recreational drinking, you know, no women and um drinking to excess is somewhat encouraged there.

And um so that's when I really got my, you know, my drinking under my belt. Um I uh I finished I finished that school in four years and and um and decided that the next best thing for me to do would be to get married. Um and so I married the a girl that that I had met while I was there.

Um it was um it was not a good marriage. I was uh my alcoholism and addiction at this point had really taken its toll and it was very very one-sided. there was no kind of reciprocity and and um I was drinking and using essentially the entire time that we were married and we were together for 10 years.

About a couple of years into it, I um we had decided to start having a start thinking about having a child. My my firstborn son Wyatt was born in in 2000 and that was actually after we had been married 8 years. So for eight years it was just me, her, and um and drugs and alcohol and and and lots of dysfunction.

Um at that point, I'm a veterinarian by trade. I was in vet school. I I had attempted to separate from alcohol and drugs and was just not able to.

um 6 months short of graduating from vet school, I was kicked out for stealing a bottle of morphine and um and I was sent to the first treatment center. Um this was in 1994 and um spent 30 days there, drank and used the day I got out. Um my story involves a whole lot of tries at staying sober and a whole lot of failures.

You know, I have a lot of um experience with attempting to do this thing and and failing. Um you know, on and on the years went. I um in 2002, my wife had had the enough and and filed for divorce.

And um I went to a uh I went to a treatment center that that specialized in in dealing with veterinarians and lawyers and pharmacists and dentists and stuff like that. and um you know kind of treat it as if we have our own special version of alcoholism and addiction. And um it didn't turn out too well.

They they they spent a whole lot of time talking to me and the other and the other patients there about um taking a good honest look at what alcohol andor drugs had done to your life. And I was talking to Chris and Marca before the before dinner. One of the exercises they had us do was was up on a whiteboard.

They would each we would each have to take turns go up and try and add up and calculate the cost of our addiction through DUIs, wrecked cars, drugs bought, etc., etc., etc. And I remember distinctly in 2002 looking at that and looking around the room and seeing lights come on in people's eyes with that assignment and it did nothing for me. Did nothing for me.

Um I thought I don't really understand the point of this assignment. You know what I mean? I can add as many zeros as you want me to add.

Alcohol and drugs still does something for me that's worth whatever dollar amount I put up on the board. And um you know, one of the other things that happened at that at that treatment center is that I met um one of my previous higher powers, Marshall. Um we met and um and essentially decided to kind of ride off in the sunset together.

Um, we um they suggested that I had gone that I go to a to a long-term men's facility. They suggested Marcia go to a long-term women's facility. We said, "Thank you for the information and but we've learned enough and so we're going to go ahead and set out on our own." And we did that in 2002.

Um, from 2002 to 2005 roughly, Marcia and I were um abstinent. And that's how I would describe it at this point. Um, we left that treatment center with our relapse prevention plan and um, you know, we're we're dead set on going to as many meetings as we could and we had a desperate desire to stay sober and um, and that lasted for 3 years and it was based on meeting attendance and it was based on acquisition and accumulation of things.

you know, we had both experienced um lots of of of material downfall through through our alcoholism and our addiction, but um had um you know, pretty much started from from square one. I mean, she's an attorney by trade and like I said, I was a veterinarian. Neither one of us worked for a while and we kind of just you know, organized our day around going to meetings and um and trying not to drink or use drugs one day at a time.

And and that worked for about um well that worked until it didn't work anymore. And it didn't work anymore somewhere around 2005. And um and in 2005 she had started drinking.

I started um I think I broke my hand and and was prescribed Bicin or something and and kind of went off on the on the pain med type spree. and and um very soon after that um you know probably around 2007 um oh one of the more important things is in 2005 we had our our one and only child Sheldon who's seven now um anyway so we had Sheldon and Marca had three kids from a previous marriage I had one and then we have Sheldon together and um and in 200 2007, something else entered the picture and and that was um that was cocaine. And um Marsha and I um Marsha and I are kind of a unique commodity in terms of um I think now on this side of things, we can be um a real strong power for good.

back then and on self-will, we can be a real strong power the opposite way. And it's it's kind of me and Marsha against the world when it's me and Marsha running on our own wealth um with no God and no recovery in the picture. Um and um you know, the whole thing accumulated and in in lots of whiskey and and lots of cocaine.

I I don't want to, you know, we don't need to go into the to the details of it, but essentially our life together um exploded in um in early 2008 and um and fortunately we were we were surrounded by some um well, my family eventually convinced me to come to Texas. Marsha was intervened on by the um by the attorneys in North Carolina and was sent to a place in Atlanta. So in May of 2008, she was in Atlanta and I was in Texas.

And that's really I think when when my life began. Um and that's kind of what I want to start, you know, focusing on. I I'd landed in a place in Austin, Texas, um that wasn't a treatment center, that was a recovery center.

Um the main difference meaning that there are no LCDC's, there's no uh licensed psychotherapists. It's staffed by people that live and work the 12 steps. And while you're there, you go through all 12 steps, and it's straight out of the big book.

And um that's something that I hadn't been exposed to. you know, I glossed over some of them, but I had gone to treatment multiple times. I mean, this time I landed in Austin was my sixth rehab.

And um and you know, the transformational experience that happened to me in the summer of 2008 is is just astounding and and I have no other I have no other words to describe it. Um, no one when when we were going to meetings when I was going to meetings from 2002 to 2005 in North Carolina. Um, this is kind of the message that I received.

And again, guys, I don't want you to think that I went to a meeting every couple of months or I went to a meeting maybe maybe once a week. I was a meeting maker. All right?

I mean, I was going to six or seven meetings a week. All right? desperate to stay away from alcohol and drugs and just not able to.

Um, a and I think that, you know, I picked up so many desire chips and sobriety chips and um and, you know, newcomer tea tags and all and all that stuff. I mean, surely I could have found something better to do with my time than go and pick up those chips repeatedly and subject myself to the shame and humiliation that comes along with that. you know, there had to have been something inside of me that desperately wanted to get wanted to get and stay sober.

And um I just didn't know how to do it. And the people that were in those meetings, Marcia probably remembers one of them. One guy's name was Larry.

Larry Z. And um great guy, great guy. Um really was one of my biggest cheerleaders for staying sober during that time um when when we couldn't.

and and he would say stuff. I mean, every night that I would come into the to the meeting, he would say, "How many days do you have today, Jonathan?" And I would say, "I got three days, Larry." So, the next time that we would meet, he would ask me again, and I always had to be quick on my feet and calculate how many more days had passed since he asked me last time, so he would think that I was still sober. You know what I mean?

I got 10 days today, Larry. you know, and he would say things like, "Well, Jonathan, you just got to think about it this way. Drinking is not an option." And I thought, I don't understand what you're saying when you say that.

You know what I mean? Cuz it's the only option. It was the only option for me.

Um I um I really thought that this was like just in North Carolina until I heard Chris and some other people say it. They really said in North Carolina, "Don't drink even if your ass falls off." I'd never really thought that that was, you know, worldwide worldwide accepted, but I guess that it is. Um, but uh but anyway, so so you know, in 2008, what was introduced to me was was the program of recovery right out of the big book Alcoholics Anonymous.

And again, I had gone to meetings before, a slew of meetings, right? 13 years worth of meetings, but the meetings had always focused on either the stories in the back or reading a paragraph at a time and kind of sharing what you thought, you know, about what we just read and stuff like that. And and then just simple encouragement to not drink.

And and the frustrating thing is is I was surrounded by people in North Carolina that that worked for. You know, the encouragement and the fellowship and stuff like that really worked for them. And I know that there's people probably in this room tonight that had this experience of coming into the fellowship and having the fellowship kind of nurse you and stuff like that until you felt ready to take the steps and get on the spiritual path.

And that just isn't my experience. You know, I couldn't stand people. I didn't really hate you.

I just I did couldn't get I couldn't get close. You know what I mean? I couldn't get close.

I couldn't assimilate with people. And so for me, my my experience is really just the opposite. I came in, I was isolated and segregated from from the general population of the world for 3 months in in Austin and I was taken through these steps and my spirit awakened.

And once my spirit was awakened, then I could come to the meetings and participate and do some service commitments and stuff like that. So, um, so that's kind of how how it happened in the summer of 2008. um you know specifically I think what they talked to me about you know and and there's um there's a couple of people that that were very instrumental um early on and one of them you know owned that recovery center but but the way that they presented the information in the big book was such was so enlightening.

I had always wanted an explanation for why I behaved the way I behaved and I never had it. You know, my parents, the veterinary board, the legal teams, they would all say, "John, you know that drinking and drugging is causing you problems. You had this period of separation.

Why would you go back?" And I would be speechless. I wouldn't know what the answer was, you know. I just couldn't get I I I mean, I don't know.

That's the best that I could come up with. Um I was told to um to go through that big book and instead of looking into the big book for answers, look more at the considerations that were posed, look at some questions, personalize it, turn statements into questions, use I instead of they or them. And um all of a sudden things started making sense to me you know when um when doctor's opinion talks about you know we drink or use for the effect produced I mean what an understatement you know I mean I I don't like the effect produced I absolutely need the effect produced you know and um and what I realized in 2008 for the first time is that this was possible.

This was possible. It was possible to stay sober cuz you know before again my whole if we look at me starting to try to get sober in 1995 and not really even doing it until 2008. That's 13 years of thinking that what is wrong with me is too much alcohol and drugs when what what is really wrong with me is too little power.

You know, and I had never heard that before. I had never heard that before. And what was always in my sights every single morning when I got up with that firm resolution was stay away from alcohol and drugs.

Stay away from alcohol and drugs. And that was what was in my target. That was what was in my crosshair every single day.

And every single time I went at it in that direction, I failed. It might have been a day, it might have been a week, it might have been 6 months, but eventually I put drugs and alcohol back into my body. You know what I was introduced to in in in 2008 is that this this is a program of recovery but it's not a a way of not drinking and using one way at a time one day at a time.

I I I sincerely saw it as a manner of living, a way of life, you know. And for me at least since that point when I was beaten into a state of reasonleness then what happened was I realized or I was able to take direction to the extent that if I follow the directions in this book and I practice this manner of living, this way of life, this way of living, then all of a sudden as a byproduct. I don't find it necessary to put drugs and alcohol in my body.

So the target was on the wrong thing for me at least for years and years and years. I practice this way of life and as a byproduct I don't put drugs and alcohol in my body and that's probably one of the biggest things that uh biggest revelations that it that had happened to me. Um, you know, since 2008, man, all kinds of remarkable things have happened.

You know, um, I, uh, me and Marca stayed separated until probably December of 2008. So, she went and did her deal seven, seven or eight months and I did my deal seven or eight months. And, um, you know, no one in the in the room really knows, but I mean, we were like this.

You could not separate us. She had no real girlfriends. I had no real guy friends.

I mean, we were really really really inshed and and for us to take direction and um follow some some simple guidelines and some suggestions from someone other than our than ourselves is a really big deal, you know. I mean, because theoretically I could have gone and, you know, swept her back up in August of 2008 and um and she could have, you know, fled to Texas or whatever then, but we listened, you know, and I went to 3 months of sober living and um you know, she went to a halfway house in in Atlanta and and there was a big time there, guys, where we weren't even sure we were going to be back together, you know, um at the end of um right before we we went into treatment in January of 2008, this is what my life looked like. I was a veterinarian.

I had a veterary practice. Marcia was a lawyer. She had a law practice.

We had a Mercedes GL450 and a Yukon Denali and a big pool and a big house and all five kids. In May of 2008, the house was gone. Both cars were repossessed.

All five kids were taken by Child Protective Services. My vet license was gone. Her law license was gone.

My vet hospital was gone. Her law practice was gone. That's 150 days from January until May of 2008.

So that's kind of the way that I showed up to Texas. All right. Having that stuff leave your life tends to wake you up.

You know, the book even says circumstances made him willing. You know, circumstances will make me willing. I I at first I thought, you know, a long time that I heard people say in the room and stuff, yeah, but circumstances don't get you sober.

No, I think that circumstances will wake you up. Without circumstances, I won't wake up. But the problem is me remembering and trying to drum up how much pain I was in in 2008 ain't going to do for me trying to stay sober in the future, you know.

So, you know, I like that I like that Scott had touched on a few um on a few steps. you know, I mean, when I took that third step decision in the summer of 2008, I mean, this is what it looked like, you know. Um, God, I really would like to be with Marca, but if you don't want her with me, then don't put her back in my life.

I really would like to see my kids again, but if you don't want me to see my kids, keep them out of my life. Now, guys, that's a that that's a startling position for someone like me to take. And I think that one of the reasons I'm not one of those guys that's ever going to say, "Well, I wish I'd have gotten sober when I was 25." No, I got sober exactly when I was supposed to.

And I got sober when I was 40. And the reason that I got sober when I got sober is this. All the roles that I had assigned myself, father, veterinarian, homeowner, car owner, husband, etc., etc., were all gone.

So I had nothing to hang my hat on. When I landed in Austin in 2008, shattered like that, I had nowhere to look, you know what I mean? But up.

And as uncomfortable as that was in the summer of 2008, man, how grateful I am for it now, you know, cuz if there had have been any other, you know, door C, door number three, there was only two doors, you know, I was either going to keep doing dope and drinking or I was going to try and accept what was being offered to me in 2008. And I think although though my ego can paint Marsha and the kids and my vet practice and the house and stuff as gifts from God really they have the same likelihood if I'm in that jumping off place as being obstacles. You know they can block me from having a real experience.

And um and I was isolated. I was isolated in 2008 and that's exactly where I needed to be. So Marsha finally came back and um and um and we decided to give this thing a go.

And it was just me and Marca at first. And here's another thing where we kind of took direction and stuff like that. You know, we desperately wanted to see the kids.

I went 12 months without seeing any of my children. Um Marcia really wanted to come back come to Texas with the kid kid kids in tow. and um and we thought that that might kind of, you know, derail her assimilating and and me getting integrated into the recovery community in Austin and stuff.

And it worked out exactly the way it was supposed to. her mom was was was watching the children. Um and and my son from my previous marriage was with his um his mother and um she came back in December I think.

So January, February, March. Um eventually in April of 2009, um me and Marsha had gone through a whole bunch of fear and a whole bunch of worry and a whole bunch of when will they come home? We think we're ready, you know.

So, um, stuff like that. Marsha's mother just calls one day, said, "It's time for you to come get your kids." And, um, so we drove to we drove to to Georgia and picked up the children and and, you know, one one piece of the puzzle kind of was was back in place. Um, I was willing, like I said, my vet license had been taken.

I was willing to do whatever, you know. So, I got a job. I think two days out of out of the recovery center.

I was in a um in a in a silver house and I took a job as a veterinarian technician, you know, I was sweeping, mopping, um cleaning up dog poop, dog pee, cat litter pans, etc., etc., making nine bucks an hour. And I was um I was happier than I'd ever been, you know. Um and uh I started sponsoring guys 3 months sober.

So this was September I think of 2008 and I haven't stopped since. That you know what the big bit points do. I mean that really has been a bright spot in my life.

You know, I I love how I love how uh Scott had said, you know, that I have a purpose. I mean, you would think having five kids would give me a purpose. You would think being a veterinarian, being a husband, etc., etc., would give me a purpose, but my whole life, all 40 years, I kind of felt like a pinball and a pinball machine.

You know, I just bouncing into one thing. And, you know, the shine would wear off so quickly after anything new. Um, nothing really lit my fire or woke me up, you know, until I got sober and until I started trying to to do this deal in terms of this way of life, this manner of living.

And um, you know, our life today is so so um I mean it's just fantastic. You know, I have lots of abundance and prosperity and and it's not just the material kind. you know, I don't think that um if I consider myself recovered, I don't think that it's because I have a house, that I got my vet license back, that I have um you know, some money in the bank.

I mean, I think that's probably a natural consequence, but it's inside here. You know what I mean? It's inside here.

It's the fact that I can put my pillow my head on my pillow at night and fall asleep. you know those three years from 2002 to 2005 that we were abstinent. Um I was abstinent from the majority of everything.

But check this out. Every single night I had to go get Alka-Seltzer Nighttime Plus and drink it every single night to go to sleep for 3 years. Now do you think that I had a cold or the flu for 3 years?

>> No. I had no I had to treat something within me. You remove alcohol and drugs from me and I get worse, not better, you know, and I think that that was reflected in my need for something to try and help me at night.

Um, you know, we've had we've had big book um studies at our house, which has been really cool. Uh, we had that going on for a couple years. Um, I have a uh I have a service commitment teaching big book out at out out at the same recovery center that I went through on Wednesdays.

I teach the the guys and the girls. Um, you know, I've had a whole lot of um I've had a whole lot of experience, you know, with the men's as well. You know, one of them that I that I wanted to share was the fact that, you know, about three years ago, I was able to make amends to um to Marshall's ex-husband, a guy who I really didn't um care for and didn't really appreciate the way he treated the kids that I've been raising for the last 10 years or the way he treated Marsha.

And um you know, I think this is very very indicative of of kind of that ripple effect I think that we've all experienced. You know, when I'm drinking and drugging and I and some event happens, there's always a negative ripple, you know, and I might see it a little down the road. I might see it here.

It may be one of my, you know, kids friends or something like that. But there's definitely a ripple effect. There's the same type of ripple effect with positive spiritual things, too.

When I made amends to that man, his name is John, this was probably in 2009, I didn't think anything more of it. Um, I wasn't any kind of real earthshattering thing. I tried to look at the book and and see that it said, you know, the heart the harder the amend maybe the the bigger the benefit, etc., etc.

Anyway, last month he emailed me. Um he has occasionally Facebookked me and stuff like that over the o over the years. Um active alcoholic and addict and um he emailed me um almost exactly a month ago and said, "Hey, Jonathan, I hope everything is going well.

Um will you give Marsha my phone number? I'd really like to talk to her. I have a friend that would like to get into to the clinic, which I guess is maybe a layman's term for a recovery center.

I was swamped that day at work. I had every reason in the world just to delete that email. I had deleted plenty of emails in the past, but I didn't.

Um, I forwarded the email to Marca. Marshall talked to her ex-husband of 12 years. Um the father of three of my stepchildren that day and um they had a brief conversation, but um he was able to ask about his children and and um also he was able to to tell Marsha how pleased he was that he had he had kind of moved back home and was living with his dad and they had kind of mended some fences cuz they always had a strained relationship.

Um that night we get a call that um that he jumped off a bridge that night in um Virginia, border of Virginia and Maryland, and killed himself. Um empty bottles of wine in an unattended truck at the top of a big um gorge. And um and there was a lot of um you know, feelings and emotions in our house.

The kids were devastated, you know, um racked with the questions. You know, I wonder if I'd have called them more. etc., etc.

The next day, I get an email from his father saying, "Can you get me in touch with Marsha? I want to talk to her about John's death." And so I forward the email to Marca. She gets to talk to his father.

So, here's kind of the way I see it. And I didn't see it at the time, but as time went on over the last, you know, few weeks, I've noticed this. If I hadn't been able to see my mistakes and my wrongdoings with this man, then I never would have gotten to the place where I'd be willing to make amends.

If I had made amends to that man, I probably would have deleted his email and not forward to Marsha. Had that happened, she wouldn't have been able to talk to her husband of 12 years uh the day before he died. And then when the father got in touch with Marsha, she wouldn't have been able to set the father's mind at ease because he was very racked with guilt and shame about the way he had treated his son.

And none of that would have been possible. I mean, all that how that started was with with the fourth step. That's where that thing started, you know, and um and to be able to experience and participate in something like that um is really astounding.

You know, the um one of the other, you know, harder amends that that I had made was, you know, to my four-year-old um who was two. He was two, I think, when we were when we were doing it. And um you know I I came out and I I talked to my sponsor and I said I think that it's really ridiculous for me to sit across from a 3 or 4year-old kid and kind of go through the formal amends process.

I just don't think that that's you know I was just going to take him off my list and move on to the next one. Well Marshall was gone somewhere. we living in an apartment and um I took him upstairs and and I said um I said Sheldon um you know I need to I need to talk with you and um you know now 99% of the time he's a three or four year old kid you know and he's spazzing he's looking around and you know not paying attention and just being hyper and um wanted to wrestle and and stuff and I didn't even tell him for sure what I needed to talk to him about.

When I said that to him, he locked eyes on me and he sat there and he met my gaze and um and I went through the the process as it was described for me to do. Um I kind of told him the harms that I was clear on. Um I didn't say anything about drugs, you know.

I just kind of um I told him that I had made some mistakes and fought with his mom and and you know hadn't seen him for a year, etc., etc. And um and when I asked him if there was anything I missed or or how that made him feel um uh he said, "I didn't think I was going to see you again, Dad." and um started crying and and I started crying and um you know the one thing that that happened that was consistent with a three or fouryear-old is when I asked him Sean is there anything I can do at this point to make things right with you he said you can come play Xbox with me and I was able to pull that amends off no problem I loved completing that one cuz I played the Xbox with him you know but look at that too that I mean that never would if I had been in charge and if I had been making the decisions on my own I would have just discarded that one is probably pointless and let's get on to some of the others that are more meaningful and I would have deprived myself of that you know of that experience um you know I've made all amends that I'm consciously aware of um and I really feel like having the experience of what happened with Marshall's ex-husband and stuff like that is world of the spirit six sense type stuff And um you know it's it's just it's just tremendous. I mean you know there's there's bylaws in the veterary um in the veterary practice act in Texas that say you can't practice veterinary medicine with felonies.

Well I have two felonies and last time I checked I'm a veterinarian. You know how does that stuff happen? We filed bankruptcy um a year and a half before we bought a really nice house.

How does that happen? You know, stuff like that doesn't happen. Um can't be explained logically in the material world, you know.

Um I really believe kind of what Marsha was talking about last night with that with that meditation process. That third step is a very powerful thing. You know, it's a very powerful decision to make.

And the third step promises. You know, some people have big experiences with fist steps. Some of them have them, you know, with, you know, with nep or 12step stuff.

But I had my big experience after step three. And um and that has been my experience all along in terms of, you know, God does provide what I need. He does provide what I need.

It may not always be what I want, but that's the other delusion that has been smashed over the last few years is that it's not always that I want this and what I need is this. Sometimes they're the exact same thing. Sometimes they're the exact same thing.

I think it puts too much distance between me and God to say that all the time my my stuff is over here and his stuff is over here. Lots of times it ends up being one and the same. It ends up being one and the same and not two separate.

Um, you know, uh, me and Marshall were talking earlier today. It is such It is so cool to be able to travel, you know? I can't imagine Scott, you were talking about the places you've been.

I can't imagine that, but but I mean, I was tethered wherever I went. You know, me and Marsha couldn't go on a weekend jaunt without making sure that we had enough. You know, um I mean, we've cut trips short.

Um I've had to, you know, rein her in and kind of reschedu things, you know, and to live this life free of abundance with tons of contentment and serenity, etc., etc. I mean, it it is such a blast, you know. It is such a blast.

And and I think that I think that the uh kind of what we were talking about before in terms of um in terms of uh recovered recovering Again, I don't want to get in the middle of that controversy. Um, I believe that I have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. I think that I've been um given the power to help others.

And what's interesting to me is permanent sobriety. That's the only thing that I'm in this for. trying to stay sober one day at a time doesn't have any depth and weight to me.

And not only that, based on my experience, I know that I can't pull it off. You know, I know I can't pull it off. Um, all five kids have been um reassembled in our lives to some extent.

Um, four out of the five uh live with us. Um, the one my youngest um or my oldest biological son, Wyatt, in North Carolina. He comes out and visits all summers.

He's going to come two days after we get back from this trip for another week. And that lady, his mom has every right in the world to not ever have him come see me again. You know, um I I' I've caused enough damage and and and caused her enough fear and worry to um to warrant something like that.

and for for him to be able to come out and um stay with us, you know, 1500 miles away with kind of no supervision, um no mediator, no nothing like that. I I mean, you know, guys, it's only been 4 years, you know, it's only been 4 years. Um, I think the important thing too to to remember for me at least in in step 12 is that for the longest time I tried to carry this message to other alcoholics, but wasn't always willing to attempt to practice these principles in all my affairs.

And um and that's been something that's been brought to to to the forefront kind of over the last year and a half or two in terms of you know work, home home life, driving on the road. I mean all those things are different types of ways that I'm able to um kind of check my spiritual status. You know, I I always thought for the longest time that that I was a chronic relapser.

I really don't think I was. I don't think that I was ever really, you know, um I don't think I was ever in recovery until 2008. And um and since then, you know, I h I haven't found it necessary to drink or use.

I think that um no matter how many excuses I would give myself, if I relapsed, I would relapse for one reason, one reason only. And that's because of a failure to maintain enlarge my spiritual condition. And I do that like the book says by work and self-sacrifice for others.

So this has been um this has been an honor and a privilege talking to you guys. Um I really appre appreciate you listening. Look forward to hearing to the other speakers.

Thank you. >> Thank you for listening to Sober Sunrise. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up as it will help share the message.

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