AA’s Best-Kept Secret: You Can Recover – AA Speaker – Chris R.
AA speaker Chris R. shares how he recovered from alcoholism through spiritual experience after 7 years of struggling in meetings. A direct talk on working the steps.
Chris R. spent seven years going to AA meetings while continuing to struggle with alcohol and addiction. In this AA speaker tape, he describes the moment he finally got serious about recovery—when an old-timer asked him one question that changed everything, and how working the steps with a sponsor gave him a spiritual experience that lifted the obsession to drink within two weeks.
AA speaker Chris R. talks about the difference between a real alcoholic and a hard drinker, and why meetings alone won’t fix alcoholism—you need a spiritual experience through working the steps. He shares his own story of seven years of failed attempts in AA, his moment of clarity before committing suicide, and how connecting with a sponsor and doing the work in the Big Book lifted his obsession to drink within two weeks. He emphasizes that true recovery requires commitment, proper sponsorship, and spiritual action, not just showing up to meetings or talking about your day.
Episode Summary
Chris R. opens with a direct message about what AA actually does and doesn’t do. He’s been sober since 1987—over 20 years—and spent the first seven of those years frustrated, confused, and still struggling. His talk cuts through some of the softer messaging that’s become common in the rooms and names what he sees as the core problem: many meetings focus on fellowship and venting rather than on the actual solution for a real alcoholic.
The heart of his message centers on understanding who a real alcoholic is. Chris draws from the Big Book’s distinction between problem drinkers, hard drinkers, and the real alcoholic—someone genetically wired to be unable to stop once they start. This isn’t a moral failing or a behavioral problem. It’s a medical condition. He illustrates this with his own family history: his father was an alcoholic, his twin brother is an alcoholic, but his younger sister isn’t. They grew up in the same household. Genetics, he says, explains it.
But here’s where Chris gets emphatic. He describes three views of recovery that exist in AA: the psychological view (therapy fixes it), the resocialization view (just stop drinking), and the conversion experience (spiritual awakening). The third one, he argues, is what the Big Book actually teaches—and it’s the one we’re worst at talking about.
He explains the internal struggle that happens when an alcoholic tries to white-knuckle sobriety without spiritual connection. Around two to three weeks in, the obsession returns. Everything starts to mean something. You become irritable, restless, discontent. Page 52 of the Big Book names these symptoms—and they’re dangerous. Chris describes sitting in a 7-Eleven, furious at the world, reaching for a beer, suddenly feeling like the nicest guy alive because he has “the solution” in his hand. That’s untreated alcoholism, not just cravings. More people commit suicide in that state, he says, than die actively drinking.
His own story is unflinching. He was a chef, talented, traveling, successful—for a while. Then the disease progressed. He bounced between jobs and apartments, saw therapists who tried to connect his drinking to his sexuality or childhood, took pills for “clinical depression” (which he reframes as self-pity), tried everything except surrender. By 1987, after 17 years of drinking that got progressively worse, he made a decision to end his life. He picked up a stack of returned checks in his apartment, sat among his ferrets, and decided he was done.
Then he heard a voice—twice—telling him to go back to AA. He went to a doctor, got help with detox, and that night walked into a meeting in Lewisville, Texas, the same Big Book study meeting he’d been avoiding for years because it was a “big book thumper place.”
What happened next is the core of his message. He almost left the meeting, hyperventilating, unable to face what he saw as the joke of AA. But a young woman—nineteen years old—got between him and the door, stuck her finger in his belt loop, pulled him into a chair, and sat with him. The whole room took him under their wing. When the chair was struck, instead of doing a typical format, the chairperson asked the room to share not how they got sober, but what their life is like now. People talked about getting credit cards back, buying houses, going to school, having relationships—they pulled him with hope and love, not war stories.
After the meeting, an old-timer asked him one question: “Are you done?” Not “Are you ready to stay sober one day at a time?” but “Are you willing to commit?” Chris said yes. The next day, they were at his door. They qualified him, did a Third Step prayer, and gave him a notebook. Two days later, he finished a Fourth Step. Within two weeks—sitting on the tailgate of his truck—he realized the obsession to drink was gone. He’s never wanted to drink again in over twenty years.
Chris spends considerable time pushing back against what he calls “mixed messages” in meetings. He criticizes the idea that 90 meetings in 90 days will fix you, or that meetings alone are the answer. He talks about the book “Living Sober” and various meeting formats that turn the hour into a dumping ground for personal drama rather than a space to talk about the power of God and the promises. He distinguishes between the fellowship (which is beautiful and where you share your life) and the program (which is the spiritual solution). In a meeting, he says, share hope. Before or after, share whatever you need to.
He also stresses the importance of getting the newcomer working immediately—not sitting passively in the “pink cloud” phase. His sponsor had him chairing meetings, making coffee, cleaning the club. When he was only a week sober, they asked him to help with the cleanup committee. He didn’t feel ready, but they made him do it. When he buffed and polished that room, the long-time members came in shocked at how clean it was. For the first time in years, he felt good about himself—not because of affirmations, but because he did something for someone else.
Near the end, Chris tells a story about riding bicycles 100 miles in brutal weather with four other riders. When most of the group turned back, the five of them pushed through, the stronger riders pulling the weaker ones up hills as it got dark and colder. When they finally finished and sat in the sauna, nobody talked—they just looked at each other. They knew they’d done something hard together, something that connected them spiritually.
He draws a line between AA members and active members of AA—people who get in the trenches, who chair meetings, who hold the line on literature and spiritual principles, who show up when others don’t. “You’re missing the very best that there is,” he tells those who just show up but don’t get involved.
The final message: the only way people get well is to sit next to someone with the same experience and have a spiritual experience. The tools—the steps, the sponsorship, the work—these are what create that. And when you give them to a newcomer, you become a force to be reckoned with.
Notable Quotes
The most cleverly guarded secret in AA is that you can absolutely recover from this illness and the obsession to drink and to drug will go completely away and you can be free and truly enjoy your life.
Alcoholism and drug addiction will not be treated by a meeting. I love meetings. I go to lots of meetings. Meetings are good. Meetings will not fix alcoholism.
If you’re a pain in the butt hard drinker and you want to get well, read that book. But if you’re the real alcoholic, you need a spiritual experience.
This is why we need to understand that alcoholism is not some kind of a stupid behavioral problem. This is a very real diagnosable illness. And unless it’s treated, and I mean by God treated properly, we’re not going to get well.
Why is it that we feel like we’ve got to be the poor little newcomer comes in and he picks it up and he thinks that’s what he’s supposed to do is talk about his day and then he relapses and the best we can do is come back and throw it in his face.
There is no medication that’s going to fix this problem. The only way they’re going to get well is to sit down next to somebody that’s had the same experience and are allowed to have the same spiritual experience we’ve had.
Topics Covered in This Transcript
- Step 4 – Resentments & Inventory
- Sponsorship
- Spiritual Awakening
- Big Book Study
- Hitting Bottom
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Welcome to Sober Sunrise, a podcast bringing you AA speaker meetings with stories of experience, strength, and hope from around the world. We bring you several new speakers weekly, so be sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help us remain self-supporting, please visit our website at sober-rise.com.
Whether you join us in the morning or at night, there's nothing better than a sober sunrise. We hope that you enjoy today's speaker. My name is Chris Rymer.
I'm very grateful recovered alcoholic. >> That was a nice introduction. I I get introduced a lot and they they usually try to take a shot at me and that was just pleasant as could be.
That was nice. That was good. When I first met this guy, I hated his guts, but you know, I just That was nice.
I hate those lights, but I'm going to put up with it cuz that's the kind of guy I am. I uh I am honored to be here, guys. I got to tell you.
Uh I'm kind of blown away by this whole deal. Um I've I've spoken at gay conferences before. Nothing like this.
This is I mean I just got here for heaven's sakes. And I uh I um Patty and I walked in my wife and and it's like oh my gosh, you know, you walk in and it's like and then the guy with a tin plat oh my gosh. I like I I got sober in 1987.
I've been sober about 21 years and I've been traveling non-stop for most of those years. I speak from the podium a lot all all over the world and and I get I'm I'm usually I'm 40 45 weekends out of the year I'm in an airport someplace traveling someplace and I I uh uh I'm pissed we're not going to stay the whole weekend. I just I I got kind of been I like I mean how how exciting could it be to be at a gay conference?
I mean we'll go and speak and leave. I'm just pissed, you know? We're going to stay for the show.
I I am truly um um amazed. What can I say? I I I'm sure y'all plan this for me.
I got to say this real quick. And this is is my I just I probably shouldn't, but this How cool is it that this is probably the only conference that I'll go to all year long that people will realize how expensive this damn tie is. Oh, this doesn't mean much to you, but it means a lot to me.
So, I don't know what I don't know what to say. I don't know. I'm honored.
I um I work at a hospital and have for about 15 years, but in a treatment center, and I get to watch a lot of cats come and go. I got some buds in the audience that graduated from that wonderful hospital. And it's a nice place.
And I was a long time trying to get well, folks. I I uh I God, some of y'all have heard talks of mine and I I try to make a point. I get a lot of emails from around the world from people who have had a lot of the same experiences.
If if you're one of these guys that woke up one day with this big old bad hangover and said, "Oh my gosh, I need to come to AA and get sober cuz I'm just I'm not liking this anymore and you come to meetings and you've been talking about your life ever since and sober and having a great time, you're I just if you think meeting makers make it, you're you're just going to hate this talk. I I I I I don't know what to tell you. I I The big book over and over uses the term the real alcoholic.
The real alcohol. But what about the real alcohol? It talks about the moderate drinkers.
Talks about the hard drinkers. But what about the real alcoholic? People get pissed.
They get, "Oh, they get as mad about that as me introducing myself as a recovered alcoholic." The big book tells me to introduce myself that way. But but because you do some some son of a that graduated from a hospital that told them that they're going to be sick the rest of their life, they they chose to believe that. That's fine with me.
If you want to be sick, rock on. I don't know. I need to apologize to my little brother over here already.
I I'm going to try to go as slow as I can. I'm so sorry. He's just so screwed.
I I I I don't know. But they talk they talk a lot about the real alcoholic in this deal because Bill Wilson wants us to see three places in the book he wants us he explains the difference between a a problem drinker and a hard drinker and a the problem drinker and the real alcoholic because he wants us to see that uh there's a difference you know a lot of people in this world abuse alcohol and drugs folks and there's just a small percentage of us that are genetically wired alcoholic and addict and That's just the nature of the beast. And if you happen to be wired this way, it doesn't matter if you're gay or straight, black or white, rich or poor, you're going to have a problem with alcohol and dope.
And I mean a fatal progressive problem. So for the little hard drinker that just woke up one day and decided to quit, rock on. I don't have a problem with that.
But but but don't make it tough on the people that that have to actually read and do the work out of the big book. That's where I kind of draw the line and I I I I'm sure that's why I speak so much from the podium is I'm I get a little little emphatic about this. We we have a message that can absolutely set you on fire and yet I spent seven years in Alcoholics Anonymous and never heard that message.
It's the most cleverly guarded secret in AA is that you can absolutely recover from this illness and the obsession to to drink and to drug will go completely away and you can be free and truly enjoy your life. And we seem to not want to tell the newcomer that. I was talking to a bunch of cats earlier and I know this room is full of new people and I just I just I I'm so grateful that you're here and that we'll have an opportunity this this uh this evening to to visit about this.
Um what a gift sobriety is. um I was reading something in the um in on off the internet not long ago was an article off of a of a particular website and I can give you the website later. I don't want to do it on the on the recording, but it it's a great website about recovery and and this article and I've asked for permission to use it and they haven't given me permission, so I'm just going to take pieces of it.
You know, that's the way it works. But, you know, it's just I always want you to know this is not my thoughts. But they put in writing what I have talked about from the podium for years and and it's this this idea about different views of recovery.
And this is why we have so many weird goofy things in our meetings sometimes, you know. It's like it's like for the newcomer coming in, they stay so confused. I mean, I I I got to tell you guys, it took me seven years to finally get sober.
And that was because, and I'll tell you a little bit about it, but that was because somebody finally got told me what to do. They that that you're not going to do this your way. This idea that we can do this any way you want is just absolutely ridiculous.
The guy that taught me how to skate, you know, didn't you do it any way you want. He's bend your knees and let's do it this way. and he sh everything I've ever learned, somebody's given me some instructions.
But now we've got this life and death errand and we're going to we're going to blow smoke up some poor kid's butt telling him he can do it any way he wants cuz we're so afraid that we're going to hurt their feelings. We it it let me read this to you. I have been known to speak in tongues from the podium.
It could happen here tonight. The first way this article was talking about we all know is a psychological view. I'm a huge fan of therapy.
But the idea is that that there's an underlying problem, stressor, and that if we'll deal with it psychologically, we can recover. You follow? Now, hard drinkers, abusers do this every day.
You know, the little I mean, the nice little guy on CNN that has a little book for $24.95. All of you guys that spent $30,000 in treatment, who knew that you could get a book for $24.95 and fix the problem? But see, the world that doesn't know, they believe that because they call that alcoholism and drug addiction cure, you follow.
It's not. If you're a pain in the butt, hard drinker, a little disco drunk, and you want to get well, read that book. I'm the psychological view is that a therapist can fix you.
A therapist can help you. I think anybody in this room that's not seeing a therapist occasionally is nuts, man. It's a what a what a cool nah it's I've benefited greatly from therapy.
It's the bomb. I spent years in therapy, folks. We talked trying to get sober.
We talked about my mom until the cows came home. Why is it that we always make a beline when you land in therapy talking about your because it's all their fault. I guess I why I don't understand.
Uh we talked a lot about me being gay. A lot I'm so not gay. But we talked about it nonstop.
Y'all understand? Cuz we're trying to connect the dots. Why is it that you're drinking?
Why are you uncomfortable? What do you have to do? We talk about it until the cows come home.
I mean, HOW I WANTED TO BE. HOW COOL WOULD THAT BE if that was the case? I mean, good heavens, that would explain everything.
I mean, out of dumpsters in 1976 in Houston, Texas, cuz I'm gay. I mean, I rational. A few years later, I'm trying to commit suicide cuz I can't make heads or tails out of this.
Y'all understand where I'm at? If a therapist can fix you the drinking problem, you're a hard drinker. welcome, but you're a hard drinker.
Second one, resocialization view. This is this is the probably the biggest one in our fellowships. This is the idea that the main problem of an alcoholic is he drinks.
I can't even say it. So, stop drinking. Oh my god.
Who knew? Just god dang. I mean, who who knew that all I had to do to regain my life was just stop drinking?
Oh my gosh. There's a little problem. As an alcoholic, I can't stop drinking.
I can quit. I can get detox, but the obsession tells me it's okay to drink again. The insanity that is alcoholism comes back and I'm off to the races.
This is where the 90 meetings in 90 days, guys, goes. This is where, you know, you're coming in and you're you've nearly had a relapse and you're all freaked up and the first thing the person said said, "You need to double up on your meetings." Like, why? Why?
My problem is that I'm not spiritually connected and the meeting's not going to fix that. Guys, if y'all don't hear anything else I say, hear this. Alcoholism and drug addiction will not be treated by a meeting.
I love meetings. I go to lots of meetings. Meetings are good.
Meetings will not fix alcoholism. God, he's an opinionated little son of a isn't he? No.
But ask any of the real alcoholics that have gone to 90 meetings in 90 days and twisted. Ask the cat that's in here that's done to 300 meetings in 90 days and twisted, got loaded again. See what?
And then get frustrated and go off and try to off himself because he can't figure it out because the guy sitting next to him went to 90 meetings in 90 days and he stayed sober. This is what I'm trying to tell the newcomers in this room. Stop comparing yourself to everybody else in the room because you may be talking to somebody that's not even a real alcoholic.
And if he tells you that the only thing you need to do is go to meetings. Don't worry about those big book thumpers. Just go to meetings and everything will be okay.
He may have just signed your death warrant. The mixed message that come out of our fellowship, take the breath away. Any of you guys ever read that piece of crap called Living Sober?
AA produced it in the 70s. Some of y'all like that book. I know.
I know. It will kill you if you're not careful. If you read that book, it just it freaks me out.
The mixed messages that we hear. The third piece, and I'm going to move on. I want to tell you about my my life a little bit, is the conversion experience.
It's the idea that Bill Wilson talks about over and over that you might need a spiritual experience in order to recover. If you can get sober on a non-spiritual basis, my book says, "You ain't one of us." I didn't say it. The book says it.
Everybody nods their head. That's right. That's right.
And then we go out of our way to hide that information from the newcomer. We're so afraid of talking about the spiritual experience. That's that that changed most of us in this room.
We're walking on eggshells. Aa is not a self-help program, my friends. Never has been, never will be.
It's a spiritual program of action. You free to agree or disagree. You're absolutely free to agree or disagree.
But this is what my book says. Y'all cool with that? Sure honored to have you here tonight?
I uh I grew up down the Hill Country. I grew up on a on a road called Goat Creek Road. Boy, that's as country as it gets, you know.
I married a little Yankee girl from New York City back I mean up in the north. I just It's a Goat Creek Road. That's why I'm absolutely fascinated with 10-in platform shoes.
I just This is We don't have much of that on Goat Creek Road. Oh my gosh. I um uh my mom's a professional artist and still still with us.
My father was a a printer, a lithographer, and uh we came from a really talented family. I've got an identical twin brother lives here in Dallas. Some of youall know him.
Uh who's a an alcoholic just like me. I've got a little sister that's never been an alcoholic. Uh, never been a hard drinker.
Uh, just she freaks us out. We talk. I got a older sister, too.
We were laughing. I have a I have an older sister. And she asked us to go buy some beer one time.
They had a little New Year's Eve party. And she handed me a 20. I said, "How many people are coming to this party?" She, "I don't know.
60 or 70 will show up." And I'm looking at the 20, looking back over her, looking at the 20. I like I don't understand that at all. My sister, they don't understand.
We're raised in the same family, same everything going on. But my twin brother and I caught this little genetic bullet. My father was an alcoholic.
We got the bullet from him. It's just that simple, folks. When we the cats come into treatment, we talk to them about this genetic predisposition.
And it's like 99.9% of them, they all raise their hand because they all can see this direct uh descent, you know, the alcohol, active alcoholism or drug addiction up in that family tree. You give most of us in this room a our family trees a good kick and and a half a dozen of us little knuckleheads will drop out of the top of that tree. That's just the nature of the beast.
And yet, we still want to go into meetings and talk about why we're an alcoholic. I'm an alcoholic because my mom and dad did some poke pokey. Period.
That's why. Hear me say that. I might make it.
Listen, can my external world exacerbate the problem? You better believe it. Listen guys, some of us in this room are carrying some baggage we've been carrying for years.
And a lot of that baggage ex exacerbated the problem and made it worse. maybe childhood trauma, poverty. Oh my god, there's a thousand things that can do that.
I I'm not making fun of any of that. But initially, what caused the problem is this genetic predisposition. And we must somehow get on the same page with that because we're we're we're we're killing people trying to connect the dots, trying to blame something external for something that's going on internal.
Let me run something by you. How many of y'all think alcohol is the problem? Because it's not.
If if alcohol is the problem, quit. Because my problem is alcoholism. Y'all follow?
Cuz when I stop drinking, I don't get better, I get worse. Oh my gosh. You should see some of y'all watch the little the little guys that come into the hospitals or watch the guys that come into our AA meetings.
You y'all seen them. They get in there and they're all banged up and they detox for a few days and all of a sudden they're little sunbeams for Jesus and they're jumping around having a great time and everybody makes fun of them thinking it's a joke, you know, oh, they're on a little pink cloud. No, they're experiencing what Bill Wilson told us we would experience in this little window of opportunity.
They're they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. And my mo is about 2 3 weeks out I start to go crazy. You follow?
Everything that was so great last week, I can I can smell everything. I see everything. Oh, this morning I was walking out.
I heard I saw a bird on my car and it was a sign from God. Oh my god. Y'all know what I'm saying is everything means something.
Did you see the clouds this morning? It is spelled out. Oh my gosh.
And beautiful child of God. Oh no. We're seeing that's week one.
Y'all understand. And week two, you're a little you're a little irritable, restless, and discontent. You're over there and you're tapping your foot and you tap tap tap tap, you know, and everybody's looking over.
What's wrong? You seem a little a little hot. What's What's up?
Nothing. Nothing. I'm just I'm just Nothing.
Oh And about the third week out, we become hyper vigilant. You with us? What's everybody laughing at?
Is it me? Is it my zipper? Is it my You know, and everybody's It was just You got a memo?
How come I didn't get the memo? It's just you with us. Bill Wilson describes the symptoms on page 52 of the beds.
It talks about this internal discomfort, irritable, restless and discontent up in the front. It talks about trouble in personal relationships, anxiety, this low self-esteem, this feeling of uselessness, this fearfulness, this anx all of this stuff starts to come back. Now listen, guys, I'm weeks away from the drink.
I'm further away from the the the problem than I've ever been. Then why aren't I doing better? My little head starts to race again and I can't sleep at night, you know, and I'm just I'm I'm I'm coming apart at the seams.
They can't talk to me that way. They they they I leave work one day and I'm driving around the freeway out here and I pull into a 7-Eleven. I sit in a car and I'm sweating.
I says, "They should be treating me back. This is just not right." Those people have they're the problems. I'm sober.
I don't know why they're talking. And I'm walk in, open a cooler, pick up a Dr. Pepper, walk back, get about halfway back, look up.
You could probably have one. Yeah, that's the ticket. But just one.
Take the doctor paper back. Grab a Budweiser. Walk back to the counter.
Stop. But if it's going to be one, make it a big one. Oh yeah.
And end up back up there at the counter with a quart of beer in your hand. Everything's great. Whistling.
You came in pissed. You if you'd had a gun, you'd just shot anybody. Y'all understand that?
Little guy in front trying to cash a money order and they got the lottery ticket guys up there and like that. You're Oh, hey. This morning, this morning when I was in there, it was like, hey, why don't you get a checking account like everybody else?
What is this? This is What's the name of this place? Quick stop, huh?
What are you doing in line like this? Come on, hurry up. Let's go now.
Go. I mean, absolutely no hurry whatsoever. Just go ahead.
Right on up there. Just get cut in line. No, no sweat.
No sweat. A little short here. Let me let me pay that dollar.
Let me get you that other lottery ticket right there. I don't care. I am the nicest guy in the world because I have the solution to every problem I've got and it's right here in my hand.
Y'all understand that, guys? That is not a problem with alcohol. That is untreated alcoholism.
More of us commit suicide in that state right there than we do out there drinking and drugging. And that's a fact. Why do we tell the newcomer to just go to meetings and don't drink and everything will be okay?
Why don't you just hand them a goddamn gun and tell them to go out in the back and shoot themselves? Don't tell them that. I was a professional chef for years, guys.
I went to Houston and I was in an apprentichip program and I was pretty talented and uh I uh we were laughing earlier. I there were times um I was good at what I was doing and even even impaired drinking and drugging. I was better than most.
And uh uh I was often u toasted by the my fellow chefs and I was asked to to lead even as just young man I was on the picture covers of magazines and I mean this was this was before the the Food Network stuff. This was back in the olden days guys and you had to do something and I mean I I got to tell you it was a hoot and I and I I was pretty successful there. Three years later, after all of this stuff was coming down and my disease kept progressing, I used to call these guys, these same people that were toasting me and ask them for a job and they would kindly look the other way.
Y'all understand? His stuff stopped working. That was my deal for 17 years.
I was what we call in the industry of a functioning alcoholic. I I I I wasn't eating uh on the street or doing goo. I I had a job most of those 17 years.
One day I would have a great job, the next day I would have not so good of a job. You with us? nice apartment and the next day I'm I'm kind of well I'm just got to spend a couple of nights in my truck till my other apartment's you know that kind of deal and it's it's like it's like but I always remember the times I'm living in a nice apartment and it's like this is nuts the internal conditions kicking my butt I'm making geographic moves that's why I still to this day drive a pickup cuz you never know when you got to move I'm just kidding hun I'm not going anywhere but I you know you never know I'm seeing a therapist early on because of the depression.
I was one of these guys that uh I was so grateful that one of the first doctors I saw a therapist, they said, "Chris, you you you're suffering from clinical depression." Now, I got to tell you, there are people out there that suffer from clinical depression. It wasn't me. It just sounded better than self-pity.
A lot better. You follow? And still to this day, the guys that I end up sponsoring, they want to start throwing that clinical depression crap at me.
And I can flip it right back to page 64. Selfish and self-centerness. that we think is the root of our troubles.
I'm so I it's all about me, folks. And that's the nature of the beast with alcoholics and drug addicts. I can't get well and I'm taking pill after pill.
They're giving me the docs. They're always one up. And you know, oh Chris, you're not clinically depressed.
You're you're you're bipolar. You're not bipolar. You're manic depressive.
You'll find out you don't. This is all the nuts. You're you're anxiety disorder.
That was a good one because they'll give you benzo for that one. and you just kind of you got to be bbop around and drool and drink a lot and it's just it's good. It's it's not it's it's nice.
The detox is a but it's nice. And uh early in the 80s, I'm trying to save a marriage. Uh uh about 79 I discovered cocaine.
Somebody turned me onto that outside issue and then I'm off to the stupid races with that and the methamphetamin. There's lots of stuff that wintered in. The the main stay with me was always rot gut cheapest on sale beer you could buy.
That was my nemesis. And the last thing I put in my body in 1987 was was that beer. And uh I uh I went to uh trying to save this first marriage.
I ended up in therapy again. And this little little little therapist uh uh was also in recovery. And and uh he looked at my folder and said, "Buddy, I know you've got all this stuff going on with you, but it looks to me like you're you're a um you're a drunk." And um I was not a happy camper with that.
Y'all with us? I borderline schizophrenic sounds pretty good on you know kind of rolls on the just you're an al I can't even say alcoholic. You know my father was an alcoholic.
I'm not an alcoholic but I am a textbook and uh so I went to my first AA meeting and I walked up some steps to this meeting and it's a real dark in there and there's an old geyser laying up in a in an easy chair and um uh and I'm not trying to be disrespectful to the old guy. I'm sure he was trying to help, but he scared the out of me, you know, and it was a dark room with one little light, like psycho, you know, that kind of light, you know, and he's in there like that. And he says, "Do you have a problem with alcohol?" And I said, "Yes." And my eyes adjusted to the room and realized there was four or five other people in there and none of them were alcoholics.
And we talked about some lady's husband who had drinking too much for the next hour. I left kind of like dazed like dearing a headlight like, "What the hell was that?" My wife said, 'Well, how'd the AA meeting go? I says, ' Man, I it was pretty cool.
They shared from the heart, buddy. I tell you, they they uh those people, thank God, they got a place to go. And I had a quart of beer and I'm I'm I spent the next seven years going to meetings hating them.
Now, listen, guys, this is where you can disagree with me all you want, but I I I got to tell you, I work in a hospital where people come in every day and they look up in the wall and they see those 12 steps and their face drops and they go, "Oh my god, not more 12step stuff." They hate us because of the meetings that we allow to exist out there. Because if you happen to be a real alcoholic, you can't get well in those meetings. All we did for seven years was piss and moan about your day.
Who's got the problem? Ooh, pick me. I got the problem.
Let's talk about my relationship. Let's talk about my guard. Let's talk about this, let's talk about that.
Except we didn't talk about how to recover from alcoholism and drug addiction. There wasn't a big book in the place. And after we finished that, we told war stories.
Especially if there was a little new guy. If there was a little young guy like like like Randy in there, any of the little new you just little guy, little squeaky, we'd kill him. We'd kill him.
Let's Let's Let's tell Let's tell him how we got here. Let's tell him what happened. And we start the stupid war stories until the cows come home.
Guys, I got to tell you, war stories are one of the most fa we we just got to have it in the fellowship. In a 12step call, you better have a war story. You follow?
Because nobody's going to listen to you unless you can identify with what's going on from the podium, it's nice to be able to tell some people so they can identify and understand where you're coming from. But sitting in a meeting on a Friday night and a newcomer walks in, why in the living hell would you want to tell them another stupid effing war story? Show me in the book that where it says that this is what you're supposed to do because it doesn't say it.
Could you talk to him after the meeting or before the meeting? Share a little bit. Could you Yeah.
I think sometimes we just don't learn use any kind of discernment when we come into these meetings. I've watched it a thousand times at little noon meetings. We'll be sitting in there and a nice little business woman will come in and she's got a little DWI and she's having a little problem and she's kind of freaked out about the solution.
She knows she's got a problem. So, she comes to this meeting and all we end up doing is scaring her out of there by telling how many DWIs we've had and how many people we've chopped up and put in little plastic bags and how many liquor stores we robbed, you know, and it becomes obvious that we're trying to play Billy badass as we go around the room. Guys, the drama is not important.
And I know some of you guys, you bristle with this in a 12step call. I'm going to say it again. You better have a story.
It's it's important. But in a meeting, why do we do that? Why do we scare people out?
They they hate us. They tell us that I don't want to go back to AA because all they do is tell war stories and whine about their day. In the traditions, we have a little thing called uh singleness of purpose.
What we're supposed to do in there is talk about what we're supposed to be talking about. Everybody's clear on that. I know in Texas, boy, you come into an AA meeting, start talking about dope, some old gizer will shut you down in a heartbeat.
And they have every right to do that because we're here to talk about alcohol. I understand that. You with us?
But then why is it that you can talk about your relationship problem in a meeting where there's a lot of other people in there that are not even in relationships? We only have one primary purpose and that's try to recover from alcoholism. But we're not ever going to get around to talking about that cuz we're too busy talking about your chicken day.
Everybody applauds. And then we go straight back to the meetings and let it happen over and over and over again. I don't know what to tell you.
And so, see, here's the deal, guys, is that the fellowship and the program are the really cool. And we need a time to talk about the program. The fellowship's the coolest.
We're going to sit out here after the show tonight. We're going to talk about our day and visit about our our experiences and share as much of our lives as we can. There's a place for that in the fellowship.
I'm just saying for the hour that we're going to sneak in and try to catch a meeting. Why don't we talk about the power of God? Why don't we talk about how to get through a fourth step so we can get some relief around all that guilt and stuff?
Why don't we talk about some cool experiences we're having in sobriety so we can pull the little scared guy in the back with a with a vision of what life can be like? Why is it that we insist on coming into these meetings and using them as dumping grounds for our problems? We need to stop.
We're the we're the we're the butt we're the punchline of a joke all over the world because of that. The problem is not the individuals. I got to tell you guys, y'all don't mind if I take this off, do you?
See, somebody whistled. That's good. I'll take whistles from anybody.
That's okay. That's a good deal. There wasn't anybody in those seven years out there sharing war stories with me or talking about their freaking weed eater that was trying to hurt me.
Y'all understand that? There's more love in these rooms than you can shake a stick at. Everybody was trying to help.
Well, if you come in here with a problem and you don't talk about it, you'll leave with a problem and you might drink over it. You're going to drink o anyway >> because the big book says it quite clearly. It talks about if there's anything left to drink over, you're going to drink over anything.
You'll follow. See, that's the cool thing about having the spiritual experience. Once the spiritual experience happens, then it doesn't matter what happens out there.
Good things happen, you stay sober. That's called power. You give us enough power, we can walk through anything with grace and dignity and come out the other side.
But why is it that we feel like we've got to we got to be the poor little newcomer comes in and he picks it up and he thinks that's what he's supposed to do is talk about his day and then he relapses and the best we can do is come back and throw it in his face where you just didn't want it bad enough. >> Well, but god damn, didn't you didn't tell him the truth. You didn't tell him what he needed to do to get well.
You just told him to come to meetings and talk about his day. Come to meetings and talk about your day, please. Before or after the meeting, but during the meeting, you better be sharing some hope.
If you're in a meeting with me and you start that crap, I don't care if it's in a I I don't care. I'm going to stop you. Excuse me.
Our meeting formats at the outpost where Patty and I go to meetings, we we're rigid as can be in that format. We're not here as a dumping ground for your problems. Please feel free to come before or after the meeting if you just need to talk.
But during this hour, we're going to talk about the power of God. We're going to talk about the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. You follow?
People People leave by droves. They leave this. Well, that ri that that format's way too rigid for me.
I'm out of here. Good. Rock on.
Go kill somebody else someplace else. I know it. 1987.
Uh, I'm done. I uh I have been to the therapy route and I've been walked and I've been I've been We were laughing at one of the other deals we did. Some of y'all I would probably this would probably be the perfect y'all know what I'm talking about but I did colonics one time to get sober.
I said that from the podium out west out west and and no there wasn't a nobody said anything. It's like I was just kind of left out there blowing in the wind. It's like nobody understood what that but but this this therapist said you it's it's impurities in your body and that's why you're an alcoholic and an addict.
If you'll do colonics you you will you can stay sober. And I did it. I thought it was the bomb.
I never stayed sober, not one day. But I got to tell you, my complexion was something else. That's a fact.
I sat naked in sweat lodges and I I in in churches built like teepeees and pyramids and had crystals and you know what I mean? And I No, I I it's 1987. It's a cold November night and I picked up a stack of return checks and went into my little apartment and um little ferrets were running around in there in their cage and I've got no furniture.
I had some furniture but I lent them to somebody one time and yeah, he's probably still got them and uh I open those return checks and I'm just done. I I'm working for my twin brother up in North Texas and uh and thank God I've got the job and I'm I I I'll forever be grateful for my family for helping me out. But uh guys, I'm I'm just I make a a conscious decision to commit suicide.
I I I just am tired of letting people down. I I am not the person looking in this mirror that my father raised. And I can't tell you I'm going to stay sober and let you down one more time.
I've picking up I've I've picked up a thousand desire chips. And every time I picked it up, I meant it, folks. And that's what our families don't understand.
They they think that we're all blowing smoke and and members of our own fellowship encourage that line of thought. You know, alcoholics were all liars and horse thieves. You know, that's just not true.
That's not my experience. I know some really evil people in AA, but I also know some of the nicest people on earth who just have a problem drinking. Y'all understand that?
And and there were times I told people that I was going to stop and I meant it with every fiber in my body. And I didn't have the power to pull it off. This is why we need to understand that alcoholism is not some kind of a stupid behavioral problem.
This is a very real diagnosible illness. And unless it's treated, and I mean by God treated properly, we're not going to get well. This is why we relapse over and over and over.
And I just think the person that wants to come mess with this, they should be allowed to do that. But I think I think anybody coming in should absolutely have the right to hear the unadulterated, unwatered down solution. I heard a voice that night that said, "Don't do this.
Go back to AA." And I um God, I didn't hear a a voice in my head. I heard a voice that said, "Don't do this. Go back to AA." It scared the daylights out of me.
And I'd been drinking. Uh but I wasn't squashed. I was just I I was under the influence.
There's no question. I'm looking around for the voice. There's nothing in that room but me and two little ferrets.
And I'm And I'm still smell, you know. Bless her. I miss them.
And um I know I know. And uh I I laid down on the bed that night. I made myself sick and I I laid down on the bed and that night and the next morning I heard the voice as I woke up as I regained consciousness.
I I I heard the voice one last time. It says, "Go back. Don't do this.
Go back to AA." And I I went to a doctor that morning and I got some uh some meds to to start the detox, excuse me. And uh that night at 6:00, I walked back into an AA meeting. I knew where this meeting was cuz a guy had 12step me uh three years earlier.
And he showed me where this meeting was. He said, he said, "This is a this is a big book thumper place, so you need don't go there if you're not interested." And I said, "You know, it's kind of freaked me out." I made a middle note. You're right.
I ain't going there. And but I was running late and I was feeling really lousy and I but I'd made a promise that I would go back to AA. And so I went to this meeting and I walked in the back door and everybody's laughing just like we just like we do in meetings there.
This is back in the day. You could smoke. It was in Lewisville, Texas, guys.
This is where I got sober. It was over in Bane Street Group. A long shotgun meeting.
They were all laughing and joking and I walked in and immediately was like we were talking. I got real self-conscious and I I just I started to hyperventilate and I started to back out. I I said like I'm I don't want to do this.
And um I'd been there, guys. Do you'all understand this? I'd done this seven years.
I'd walked into these meetings. I was the laughing joke of people in AA because I kept picking up these chips. And I walked back in there and I couldn't do it.
And I started to walk back and this little little 18 19 yearear-old girl got between me and the door. I stepped on her foot as I'm backing out. Some of y'all have heard me talk about this and I talk about it every time I speak because I think it's important because the little 19-year-old girl wasn't off in some little young adult meeting talking about young adult stuff.
She was in mainstream AA looking for a drunk and I was the drunk and her sponsor had seen me and she couldn't get over to me. So, she pointed the girl and the girl got between me and the door, stuck her finger in my belt loop and pulled me down in a chair. Now, I don't know what you call love, folks, but that, as far as I'm concerned, is about the about the apex.
She didn't pat me on the ass and say, "Keep coming back. It works if you work it." She pulled me down in a chair and got me a cup of coffee and some paper towels and said, "Sit down, buddy. It's an hour.
I'm going to sit right here with you." And we visited a little bit. God's grace. You know, if it had been a guy, I'd have just whooped his ass and moved.
But this girl, it's 19th kid and I'm big, full beard. No, I've got about 40 pounds on me here. And I hadn't bathed in days.
I mean, guys, I was a t I was a mess. And this little girl, she just and that whole room took me under their wing. And I got to tell you, the chairperson took charge of a meeting.
He didn't say, "Well, the format says we have to do this." He said, "No, we got a newcomer. Why don't we do this? Why don't we go around the room and let's share some hope with this newcomer?
Let's say, let's don't talk about how we got here. He knows how we got here. We all drank too much.
Why don't we talk about our life in sobriety?" What's different today as a result of working the steps and as a result of having a spiritual experience? People say, "I can't remember my first meeting." Guys, I'm a lot of those meetings I can't remember, but I remember this one and it took my breath away. And they got on the edge of my I mean, they went around and talked about getting credit cards back.
They talked about stuff that I could understand. Getting in relationships and buying houses and going back to school. They weren't.
Nobody tried to scare me with a stupid, stupid, wasteful, ridiculous war story that I wasn't going to remember anyway. They pulled me with hope. They pulled me with love.
At the end of a meeting, the old geyser came up after I picked up my 15 millionth desire chip. He came up and he got my little face and he had a little book and he said, "Buddy, have you got a minute so we could visit?" And I said, "Absolutely." He says, "I got I've watched you for years up here. I got to ask you one question, brother, because we're going to help you if you want.
And I said, "Thank you." He said, "Let me ask you one question. Are you done?" He didn't ask me if I was ready to stay sober one day at a time. You little one day at a time pukes need to stop killing people with that crap.
The book is crystal clear. The book is crystal clear. We live life one day at a time.
Y'all follow? We live life one day at a time. It doesn't say we stay sober one day at a time.
You shaking your head? Some of you read the book because this is the catch that everybody wants to use when they split. Guys, I don't have the I don't have the any idea how to stay sober the rest of my life.
You guys on a daily basis are going to show me how to stay sober. But the decision on whether or not you want to stay sober or not has got to come and it's got to come right now. Are you ready to do this or not?
Because if you're not, we do you a disservice when we don't let you go back out and finish the job. It It's just that simple. Half you guys in here, guys and girls in here that are sponsoring people, you know exactly who I'm talking about.
You got a couple of people that doing the work, kicking butt, taking names. They're no problem at all. They're a joy to be around.
And then you've got that one that can't seem to quite figure out if they really want this or not. And you want to hang on to them and hang on to them and hang on to them. Quit.
You got a problem with this fellowship? We only have one thing to sell. The spiritual experience.
You don't want the spiritual experience. Go away. Go away.
WHY IS it that we are so afraid to be straightforward with our brothers and sisters about what we have to offer in this fellowship? We're not therapists. We're not counselors.
We're people that have been through hell and we can show you how to get to the other side. This I told this old guy that I was ready. He hugged my neck like a guy in a can hug.
You know what I'm saying? He loved me instantly. Welcome.
The next day, they were on my doorstep and they made sure I got back in there. And then they came back up afterwards and we talked. They they they qualified me.
For the first time in 7 years, they qualified me. When you drink, do you drink too much? Can you control how much you put in your body?
No. Sometimes I can. I know sometimes I can too.
But can you do it every time? No. Given sufficient reason, when you want to stop, can you stop and stay stopped?
No. Welcome to Alcoholics Anonymous. If you so choose to, we can show you how to have a spiritual experience that'll change your life forever.
We got in the back and we did a third-step prayer. We went and got some lunch and we came back and they gave me a notebook and said, "Buddy, why don't you start working on a four step?" I said, "Oh, no. I've been around AA for seven years.
I know what that four steps about." Uh-uh. I'm still detoxing. Yeah.
We laugh. I I I don't feel up to it. He said, "Ah, Chris.
Just start writing down the people you hate. You can do that. You got to make a start.
A couple of weeks later, I've got a completed four step. I'm done. I was done in two days.
They had me working on it. You follow? Waiting for my spons to get back in town to do a fifth step.
And I'm sitting on the tailgate of my truck and it dawns on me that the obsession to drink is gone. I'm a cat that could not not drink. I could not not do those other outside issues.
And here I am sitting on the tailgate of my truck two weeks in and I've had a spiritual experience and the obsession to drink is lifted and I've never looked back. Not once in 21 years have I ever wanted to drink again. I get emails from people all over the world who have had the same experience.
And yet we're so damned afraid to go into an AA meeting and share that information. We're almost almost apologetic to talk about the miracle of recovery in this fellowship. Cut bait or get out of the way.
Y'all know that expression? Fish, cut, bait, or get the hell out of here. Two weeks in, the obsession lifted.
I got to tell you, my life has been something else. I've been through some tough times. Um, not too bad.
Uh, but times I didn't think I could get through. I've had some some experiences, guys. People misunderstand sometimes what I say from the podium that I recovered and everything was perfect.
My life was Y'all understand that? I owed every person on earth and I had some physical problems from some of the stuff I had done and I was really sick for a long time and had a lot of financial problems. I owed the IRS a lot of money and the credit card companies.
I they just my it was tough. The obsession lifted within two weeks because I got off my butt. Those old geyzers, they had me chairing meetings.
They were showing me how to chair meetings. They had me making coffee. They had me had me volunteering for things around the club.
They didn't let me sit on my ass. The best we can do with a newcomer today at the most groups that I end up going to is that, you know, just just sit, just chill. Welcome, keep coming back.
But you see, if alone in my head, I'm going to go crazy. They they gave me stuff to do. They said, "Chris, we need somebody on the cleanup committee.
I'm like a week sober." And I said, "Buddy, I'm I'm not even finished shaking yet. Give me a break." No, we need some help and we think you can help us out. You know, they play to the, you know, Yeah, probably.
But I'll never forget I finally said, "Okay." They opened the door and said, "Chris Rammer, meet Mr. Hoover and the vacuum cleaner." And I did that. And so we we went on.
But I went home early one day and I left work and went up there and they cleaned that club up. And I got to tell you, I sat there at 6:00 with a fresh cup of coffee and was kind of grinning to myself cuz I'd done a spit polish job. I was in a a caterer for years.
I knew how to set a room, buddy. And this room was set to the nines, buddy. It was looked good.
And these people walked in and these little nice little ladies that had been around the fellowship for years and they said, "Oh my god, we have never seen this club this clean." >> Now listen folks, I guess I could have gone in the bathroom and done some positive effing affirmations. Told myself what a good boy I was. But you know, for the first time, they entrusted.
Some of y'all like those. Keep doing them. The epitome of selfish and self-centerness.
Why don't you go help somebody else and do something for somebody else for a change and see how good you feel? Make sense? That's why we have greeters at our group that we let everybody get a job.
Old guys, none, new guys, we all get to do it. Oh my gosh. My life, I sat straight up in a meeting and felt good about myself, what I was doing.
All I did was vacuum a damn floor and set some chairs up. You'll follow. My life has been blessed ever since.
It's by receive. And too often with a newcomer, we we we feed into the self-pity crap. Okay, you just sit there for a while and when you get to feeling better, you can help us.
They're not going to feel better. They're going to go drink and we're never going to get a shot at them. Give them a job.
Don't let them sit there in their head. Please, please, please. I got to tell you what happened.
I'll give you an idea. In 1987, when I went back in that room, I entered for the first time ever with no plan. I was willing to go to any length.
I didn't have an escape hatch. There was no women to catch, no family was going to catch me. No job, no I I was I had no plan.
And they said, "Are you willing to do what we ask you to do?" And I did that. And um and my life's never been the same. It's called commit.
And that's what this is about. I uh I got to tell you this little story that that I talked about it last night. It might explain this a little bit.
I I hope it doesn't offend anybody, but I What the hell? You know why people laugh like that, guys? But I got to tell you guys, cuz y'all do it because I know I come across as I'm preachy, you know, but I I I But I'm 21 years sober in a fellowship that I know works and I work in an industry where the only solution is alcoholism and drug addiction to this this deal is is the 12 steps and and I just watch so many people tiptoe around with this message and it it drives me will never never pursue this well we can do this any way we want blah blah blah but you can continue to have the same results and then look down your nose at the people that are happy joy and free the this This we're amazed is what we're all after.
This is Do you think this is about just not drinking one day at a time? Has anybody not explained that that's not what this is about? This is about being happy, joyous, and free.
That's where I want everybody to be. Early days of uh my sobriety, I bought a bicycle. I was about I was sober a few years and was competitive for a short period of time and uh bad jeans.
I just was never very good at it. But I started uh uh playing this um um I don't know how to explain it. I I I trained hard.
I I I I tried to get as good as I could and eventually we all there was a bunch of us that went on this 100 mile ride. It's just kind of a ride of patches in in in bicycling. You you ride a century.
So um uh we all set out there was about 16 of us, 15 16 of us and we were going to ride a 100 mile circle in this on a Saturday morning. We knew that it was going to get cold, so we all brought cold weather gear and and uh we'd all watched the weather before and we all sat out and about 30 mi out, 25, 30 mi, we it got cold. This cold front hit up in up in the hills and uh it got really really nasty really quick.
It it it overcasted and it started precipitating. We didn't know anything about the precipitation. We just it was we put on everything we had.
Some of the guys split. They said they weren't going to do it. They turned around.
Well, we thought it was going to get warmer as the day got longer in the day. We thought it would get warmer and so we headed on out. We kept riding and it didn't get warmer.
It got colder as the day progressed and uh uh evening started approaching and we're out there. We're riding into uh this north wind and it's nuts. And uh a few more people split.
We ended up in this little town about 2530 mi away from our end the end result of the 100 mile ride. And and most everybody got a van and they said, "No, we're going to call these people to come get us. They're going to split." And uh there was about five of us guys and we were all sitting there at the same table.
We were eating everything we could to just get some energy. And uh we said uh let's go. Let's let's finish this ride.
We can do this. Of course, we'd been sitting there. We were all nice and warm again.
So we're going to get back out. But but we set out. All of us got together.
We all got a little pack and says we there's some of us that are strong riders and some of us are weaker riders. And we got in the middle and the strong riders pulled us. It was like a pelon.
We didn't we weren't the weak guys. We just didn't take a turn. We the strong guys just pulled us.
And and there's a guy with a light and he rode in the back to keep the cars off our ass because it's getting dark. Guys, I'm going to tell you, of all five of us, there wasn't any of us that weren't hitting the ground. I mean, it was sleeping out there.
We had to get home. It this was not like fun like we thought it was going to be. This was a torture death ride.
And we got out and we started riding and uh everybody did what they were supposed to do and everybody was encouraging everybody and literally these people were pushing my skinny little ass up these hills to get us back to where we needed to be. and they surrounded us and they got us back into this parking lot where we started that morning and uh we all put the bikes up and we all took our the warm stuff off and we went inside and we got in the saunas and we got in the whirlpool thing. We took a shower and got in there and we were just looking at each other.
There wasn't a one of us five that were that were talking. We just looked at each other because we kn we we knew that we had done something that was pretty unique for us. We we it was beyond what we had set out to do.
We had all pushed ourselves a little bit further than we needed to do. Of the 16 people, there were five of us that finished that ride. And we have all been spiritually connected ever since.
There's something about doing something hard with somebody else, doing just staying on that path. Where am I going with this? Some of you in this room I've known for years and we are spiritually connected because you're the one carrying a big book into the meeting.
And when the meeting starts to go down the toilet, you're saying, "Excuse me a minute. This is a little more than your sensitive little feelings. We're not going to talk about that in here now.
We're going to talk about what this literature talks about." You've stood for something for years. You've continued to come back. There's women in here, men in here of all color that have stayed in the trench with us, not as just members of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Y'all understand I'm talking about as active members of Alcoholics Anonymous of people that are in the trench making sure that the meetings don't go dark and that the m that the that the the things are funded and when somebody doesn't show up, you step in there and do what you're supposed to do. And guys, I don't care if we're gay or straight. We're all so spiritually connected, it's not even funny.
The sad part is that there's a bunch of you sitting in this room right now that ain't there. You can be offended by this if you want. You think you're a part of this because you happen to be an alcoholic.
I'm going to tell you, you're missing you're missing the very best that there is because you won't get in the trench with the rest of us. There is no medication that's going to fix this problem. Folks, people are dying every day from this illness.
And the only way they're going to get well is to sit down next to somebody that's had the same experience they and are allowed to have the same spiritual experience we've had. the when you give the newcomer the tools, the proper tools, we are a force to be reckoned with. And you don't have to have 10 years of sobriety to do it.
You don't have to have six months to do it. You have had to have worked the steps and had a spiritual experience. And at that point, you're in the trench with us.
Come help us. Help us carry the carry the message that will change people's lives. In the process, your life's going to be changed.
Thank you so much for letting me come up and play. >> Thank you for listening to Sober Sunrise. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up as it will help share the message.
Until next time, have a great day.