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Whether you join us in the morning or at night, there's nothing better than a sober sunrise. We hope that you enjoy today's speaker. Thank you so much, Bruce.

My name is Keith Lewis. I'm an alcoholic. >> We're still waiting to see how crazy Bruce is.

U all the data is not in. Uh, I uh I'll tell you I Bruce had asked me if I would do this yesterday and uh I knew I was making a mistake. Um I feel something like the guy must have felt who who preached the sermon a day after Pentecost, you know.

Uh I I uh I've known and loved Mike Weey uh for almost 27 well it'll be 26 years next month uh when we met. And um and I've watched this this development, this incredible development that's that's taken place. And uh how many times we've sat and laughed and cried and prayed and done all those things together.

And uh and you know, we're promised that uh that we'll get to watch a fellowship, you know, unfold about us. And uh and Mike sort of epitomizes that that fellowship for me. Uh he often embarrasses me by telling stories which have a modicum of truth in them, but but not much more than that.

And uh and one of the things I remember about Mike was u uh we never did anything alone once we discovered we didn't have to. And and I bought a house uh um in Tacoma Park and there were I believe seven town houses were not my seven town houses and they all came on sale at the same time. I think everybody figured out at once that the neighborhood had gone to hell.

But uh um I bought the first one and um and of course I got all my AA friends to buy houses. So we had you know the irregular group of alcoholics anonymous living there side by side and it was a zoo. It was a marvelous zoo.

And uh but it was great. You know you always had someone to go on a 12step call with. You know all you do is knock on the door next door, the door beyond that or the door beyond that.

and and we had all these gatherings. We used to call we had a popcorn ministry where we'd all get together and Mike would make popcorn and we'd just talk about the principles of the program. We had a bagel ministry on Sunday.

We'd get locks and bagels and cream cheese and it' be 20 of us and you know we we'd all go for a run or something at Tacoma Park and then we come back to Mike's house and we'd all eat bagels and things. It was just an incredible way. And what was amazing to me about that was uh you'd look around that house and there would be you know 20 people who anywhere from 6 months to six to six years before that were so horribly isolated that there was nobody else in their life.

Mike described it beautifully that people in our lives were were like cutout figures that uh that I moved around. They were like pieces of furniture in my life and and they were there to gratify me. That's that's what your job was.

Your role was there to gratify me. Uh the book describes what I suffer from is selfishness and self-centerness. And it says that that's the root of my problem.

And it says something else too. It says uh in a 12 and 12 that the inability to maintain a relationship was probably the cause of my alcoholism. Amazing phenomenon.

I thought about that a lot. The inability to maintain a relationship was probably the cause of my alcoholism. And that's not quoted exactly right.

If I need an exact quote, I always go to Bill. Bill, do you remember off exactly what that said? Is that is that close enough?

Well, you come a long way, Bill. Um, first three or four year years I uh sponsored Bill, I used to purposely misquote things so he could correct me, you know, to every everybody's got to have a place. And um, you know, this whole business of how we relate to others, how we relate to God, how we relate to the world in general, I think is probably the the most significant lesson to be learned in Alcoholics Anonymous.

Bill thought so when Bill wrote to 12 and 12, he'd had a fair amount of experience in Alcoholics Anonymous and he'd watched a lot of people come and go and and uh and I've had a fair amount of experience in Alcoholics Anonymous. My sobriety date is May the 13th, 1973. And and I've watched a lot of people come and go and uh and I I've noted some things which may or may not be correct.

It may may not be accurate. Uh I don't think it matters. What matters is that I believe them real hard.

I I really think that that's what matters. I don't think we need to be right. I think we just need to be honest and consistent.

And uh because if being right counted, I'd been gone a long time ago. Uh but um but what I've discovered is that people who insist on being different never seem to make it in Alcoholics Anonymous. Uh I I was at a prison last week.

I was at a couple prisons last week. I'd love to go to prisons. And uh and I was there and um a guy who introduces himself differently than everybody else.

You know the guy, my name is so and so and my problem is so and so. Well, that's really clever except that he's not one of us yet. And he's saying, I think my problem is is that I've never taken a good fourth step.

No, no, no. Your problem is you've never taken a good first step. You know, u if you need to stand out in Alcoholics Anonymous, I mean, think about that.

How'd you like to be a standout in an organization that everybody gets to as a last choice? really makes a lot of sense, doesn't I? I mean, if a non-alcoholic ever got into Alcoholics Anonymous, they'd choose to remain anonymous.

I I mean, they really would, wouldn't they? But, uh uh and so this whole business of how we relate to one another, how we relate to the world in general, how how we relate to God is critical. And I think it's something that really really merits a lot of thought.

And you know, everybody always thinks if you're going to talk on relationship, we're going to talk about sex. I don't know about you, but uh I mean I don't want to downplay sex. I think sex is important.

Like not drinking is important, but uh but sex has very little to do with relationships. It really does. I mean the reason that's true is I had a lot more sex when I had no relationships, you know.

So if uh you know if rel having a good relationship were important to sex you know I wouldn't have had any sex before I got to alcoholics anonymous because I was in in unable to relate to another human being and the reason for that I think is it because I was grossly immature. Uh you don't hear it much anymore because it's probably not cool but the old-timers used to say when I came to Alcoholics Anonymous that that your level of maturity stopped when drink when alcohol worked. the day that alcohol worked for you is a day that your level of maturity stopped.

And that was true. And you know, I came to Alcoholics Anonymous as 29 years old. I my wife had tossed me out and and uh and I was 29 years of age.

And um and I was emotionally 15. And uh easily emotionally 15. I mean, I was demanding.

I was like King Baby as Freud would talk about, you know, I'd lay down and kick my heels on the ground and and I'd pout, you know, and I'd project my guilt onto you and uh and I hated with vengeance and and I plotted I always plotted revenge. I had these tremendous tremendous plans of revenge, you know, and it was insane. I remember when I was in the Marine Corps, I there were a couple drilling or a couple military police who didn't understand the roles uh in Jacksonville and and um and they harassed me and um it was as though they didn't recognize who I was and um and and and I remember the day I got out of the Marine Corps.

Now, my alcoholism is only four years old and I get out of the Marine Corps and the four guys that I met when I joined the Marine Corps, we all met at dispersing. Now, we hadn't seen one another for 4 years. We'd all gone to different branches of the Marine Corps and different duty stations and things and we all met at Camp Lune up in North Carolina and and we all shot laughing and everything and three of us had made corporal, one had made Lance Corporal.

And so I said to him, "Let's go to the NCO club and have dinner or have lunch and a and a and a beer and talk about old times." So we did. We went over and it was great fun. We all shared where we'd been and what we'd done and and all that stuff.

And uh and uh they just kept looking at their watch because they had things to do like get home and chase their girlfriend around and stuff like that. And and I stopped looking at my watch when I took the first drink because time no matter longer mattered. I became a great philosopher after the the first drink.

Uh I mean I I really did. And I kept saying why don't we have another? They said well I really want to catch a plane.

I said what what what's the hurry? We've been here four years. You know what's another you know?

And so they had another one but had it in a hurry and said goodbye and left and and I stayed there. Um I stayed there lamenting the fact that we weren't kinder to one another. And uh then I started thinking about those MPs out there and and um and I remember that um that uh I'd read that you're actually under the jurisdiction of the Uniform Code of Military Justice for 24 hours after your discharge.

Well, my discharge had been signed at 9:00 that morning. So that meant that for 24 hours. So, I went into Jacksonville and had a few drinks and I went to a friend's house and drank until the middle of the night and went to sleep.

And I got up the next day and put on civilian clothes and I went into a bar where the MPs used to harass me. And I was sitting there and it was 9:30 and I was drinking my second beer and the MPs came by and I just did what any normal person would do. I gave them the finger and and they came and uh and uh told me that that they were taking me in.

And I said, you know, you can't talk to me that way. And I called him, you know, all those names and jarhead and all that stuff that people would call me. And and uh and so they took me down to the police station and they took me in the police station and I said, I want to press charges against these military types for harassment and for uh assault and battery.

I'm going on and on, you know, and uh and uh and I showed them my orders and I'd been a civilian for half an hour when they began to push me around. And um now, you know, the average guy wouldn't have stayed around 24 hours to just to prove a point. And uh you know and this is how I related to the world.

Um when I got up in the morning, I went to war. I mean that's what life was about. Life was about getting up and going to war.

And I had a total inability. I lived in a hostile environment whether I was in combat or not. Uh and it was about getting up and going to war.

And I came to Alcoholics Anonymous with the same mentality. Same mentality. There was a guy Big Mike who's been dead a long time now, but Big Mike got sober in Hell's Kitchen.

And Big Mike talked about when he the day he fell in love with Alcoholics Anonymous was the day he discovered that maybe one day he'd be speaking on Saturday night. And the way that happened was older members would either die or get drunk. And he keep track, you know, and and when they get drunk or die, he'd just be thrilled because that moved him closer to Saturday night.

And and and I can understand it. I can really relate to that because I came to Alcoholics Anonymous at total inability to relate to anybody on any level whatsoever. Somewhere between a second and third drink, I would wax philosophical and and I would be able to relate on some level.

The woman I was married to, uh there were those rare occasions when we would both have enough in us. I don't think she had a drinking problem, but we'd both get enough booze in us that philosophically we would match. It was like magic.

But but that was a rarity. It wasn't something that was thought to be anything but a you know a coincidence something you know like two ships passing in a night al you know you enough ships passing a night two are going to run into one another one of these days and that's sort of how how our relationship worked and it came to Alcoholics Anonymous and and what I was told in no uncertain terms was Keith you're a nice kid but you have to grow up not good news you have to grow up I waited for years for other people to change and then I received the message that I had to grow up and and you know, Mike said it so beautifully this weekend. Um that that uh I was incapable of doing those things.

I'll tell you how immature I was. I was uh 30 years of age. I've been sober almost a year.

I've been separated for over a year and my and near a divorce. And my sponsor told me it was time for me to date. And he said um he said, "Have you been thinking about anybody you'd like to date?" I said, "Well, no." I said, "I don't think about those things.

working on my spiritual life. And um and I said, "There is, however, now that you mention it, a really good-looking nurse up on uh uh OBGYn." I thought that was Freudian. And um and he said, "Well," he said, "look, I want you to," he said, "Is she single?" I said, "Of course she's single.

What kind of a man you think I am?" He said, "Look, I've heard your fifth step." Um uh he said, "Uh uh" he said, "Uh I want you to ask her out." And I said, "Well, I'm not sure I want to do that, you know." Well, of course, I wanted to do it, but I couldn't because immature people can't do things like that. So, what I did was I stalked her. You you know how you do that?

You know, you look at her and you see how she's looking at you and you know, the computer's going, then you look at how she looks at other guys and you know, and all this stuff. And then you drop hints like, "You're probably going out a lot, aren't you?" And um and stuff like that. and and you know because the idea of course is to totally thank you is to totally minimize the chance that I'll be rejected because one more rejection I'll die you know I mean I'm one rejection short of going over the edge and I had been for quite a while um and u and I ran into her one time in a hall now he told me I had a deal with my first sponsor his name was Dan and the deal was if I did what he said he wouldn't break my knee he's a big guy.

He could have broken my knee. And uh from time to time he'd say, "What are you grateful for?" I said, "I'm not grateful for anything." He said, "We have two perfectly good knees." And and so he said, "I want you to ask her out the next time." And I said, "Okay." So like four times later, like I ran into her in the hall and I'm 30 years of age. I mean, I'm considered to be a reasonably bright guy.

I mean, I'm a member of the World Congress of Genetics. I mean, you're talking about a high roller here, you know? And uh and I said to her, "Hi," which I thought was really clever.

And fortunately, I didn't ask her a sign. That was big then. But uh but I said to her, "How'd you like to go out Saturday night?" And I was 15 years of age.

And I said, "Oh, you probably wouldn't. And even if you probably don't, even if you did, you wouldn't want to go out with me anyway." And I turned around and walked away. And uh and I stopped.

Look at Jeff. He can't understand this. He doesn't drink, right?

Um I stopped. Right. I stopped and and I turned around.

I said, "I'd like to start over." And her mouth was still hanging open, you know. And uh and I asked her, I just started ask her out. She said, "Yes." You know, cuz she didn't know what I'd do.

And uh so we went out, we went to her house. Never forget it. She invited me to her house for dinner and we had all these raw vegetables.

I should have known, you know, this raw vegetables, you know. And then I asked her out, "We're going to go to the theater." And I told my sponsor, I said, "I'm going to ask her to the theater." He said, "That's a very nice thing." He said, "That's a nice safe place to to take someone." And and so it was at the Kennedy Center and and um and um uh so we went to one of my favorite places, place called Chadwicks, and we had dinner and I had coffee and she had a glass of wine and uh and then she had another glass of wine and and she had another glass of wine and had another glass of wine and about eight glasses of wine later I said, "Um, we might want to go so we don't miss Curtain." and she screamed, "MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. LEAVE ME ALONE." And um I went and called my sponsor and um and he said um he said, "Look," he said, "Pay the bill." He said, "Leave her money for cab fair and come and pick me up." And I said, "We're going to go for coffee?" He said, "No, I've wanted to see that place since I came to town." So like Mike, like Mike, my picker was really screwed up.

And um but um but that was the beginning. And and what I discovered was if I was going to function interpersonally, I had to be willing to make a lot of mistakes and to appear foolish and and do all the rest of it. But the mistake I made was I tried to begin this whole phenomenon of relating with with females with members of the opposite sex was a huge huge mistake.

I had to begin this phenomenon of relating with God and with my sponsor and then later with my personal close friends and on and on and on. You know John Pow, Mike mentioned John Pow. I met John Pow through Father Bob in 1980 and I asked him I sober about seven years in and you know seven years is a time when I just it's easy to get fed up with the spiritual way you know because you're never sure they're going to do what you want them to do no matter how good you act and um and uh and and I was just fed up and I said to Father Pow I said what's all this crap about this spiritual crap what's all this about and he said well he said he said it's a process he said um he said and it's now he's not a member of Alcoholics Anonymous but he loves Alcoholic anonymous and he said uh he said uh look he said three things happened to us and he said aa is a perfect place for that to happen he said the first thing that we have to do is discover who we are who we are and I I'd like to add who we aren't had a friend Bob Brown who's passed away now but Bob Brown always used to say you know I'm not the man I used to be and I never was you know and um and I had created this person who wasn't I mean I was a war hero but I was too humble to talk about it.

I um I was at times an FBI agent, but I was undercover and um and I created whatever I need to create in order to be accepted. I was married to a woman who didn't know minor things about me. Like I was terrified of heights, you know, and things like that.

I mean, just didn't know anything about me because what I had to present to her was something that I thought she would accept and want. And that certainly wouldn't be me. So the key to this whole deal is to discover who I am.

And for me to try to give myself in a relationship of any kind to God, to my parents, to my brothers, to my sisters, anything would have been a waste of time because I had absolutely no idea what I was bartering, what I was sharing. And then the second thing he said is I have to fully accept who I am. Fully accept who I am with all my warts and everything else.

Because as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, there's a member of any organization where the the goal is spiritual growth. I know that I'm not going to remain who I am. I'm going to be changed.

And then the third thing is to forget who I am. And I forget who I am by being available to others. So I have to discover who I am.

I have to accept who I am. Then I have to forget who I am. and and I tried to play religious at a couple different junctions in my life.

I I knew that my life was in a toilet and and it seemed to me that religious people lives weren't in a toilet and uh and I wanted to be religious. So I looked at what they did and I acted religious and the problem was was that I couldn't and the religious or spiritual human being is a person who's forgotten self. I didn't know who self was so I couldn't forget it.

I was always trying to put the cart before the horse. I was always trying to act mature before I was mature. I was trying to act giving before I was giving.

Um, if you question whether or not you're mature enough to be giving, ask yourself whether or not it's important for somebody else to find out. If it's important for somebody to find out that you've been giving, then you're not mature enough to be giving. But it doesn't mean you ought not be doing it.

It means that it's a skill that we're in the process of learning. Okay. Uh I um we we can look at relationships in a lot of ways but I think the basis the basic is this and that is that if I got to Alcoholics Anonymous as a practicing alcoholic no matter how sophisticated I may act I know little or nothing about relating to God, the world or to another human being.

And so to a large extent is learning how to relate to others. And and one of the ways I did that was one day I sat down as part of an in inventory process. Mike and I have do this semiannual and annual house cleaning with one another a lot.

We have for 25 years. We'll we'll get out our book and we'll do our little writing and then we get together and we usually have fried chicken and uh and we catch up on things. Uh we used to go for silent retreats, which is a joke.

Um the way a silent retreat works is you get there 11 o and at 6:00 right after dinner on Friday, you're silent. You don't say anything. You just don't say anything.

And uh and somewhere around Saturday afternoon, if you're at a monastery with Mike Weey on a silent retreat, somewhere around Saturday afternoon, you'll hear coming from DEEP IN THE WOODS. YOU KNOW, Mike's held on as long as he can. And um he's out in the woods screaming.

And um but but we would go on retreats usually quarterly or something like that. And uh and we would share that. We would do our spot check our annual and semianual house cleaning.

and and we would call one another to task because he'd say, "Well, you know, last time you said you were going to do this. Did you follow through on that?" And and vice versa. Uh and it's a wonderful thing because we learned to relate to one another honestly.

Maybe one of the first people in the world I ever did that with. I I related more honestly, more quickly with Mike than I have my sponsors. And the reason is that my sponsors have never understood their roles.

Okay? They really have. I mean, I've had a lot of trouble with men and women in my life who just don't understand their job description.

Um, my sponsor thought his job was to help me become a better member of Alcoholics Anonymous. He didn't realize his real job was to affirm me and make me feel good about myself. And um, so I would tell him things I thought he wanted to hear.

When Sandy was my sponsor, Bruce mentioned Sandy, Sandy was my sponsor, we'd have lunch every week. And one of the tasks he gave me was to share with him an old idea. You know, he said, "You ought to come up with an old," He said, "You're sober four years.

You ought to come up with an old idea." He said, "An old idea is something you believe before you no longer believe." And so I would make up old ideas because I didn't want to disappoint him. And uh and one week I forgot. And we were sitting out on Washington Circle eating our lunch and he said, "Well, what's your old idea?" And I said, "Oh my god, I panicked.

I forgot to think up an old idea." And I said uh I said I was stuck. I mean I was finally caught. And I said to him, "Well, Sandy, this week I didn't have an old idea." He said, "There's an old idea." And um and but so I was able to relate to Mike early on.

For some reason, there's something about Mike that I just don't give a damn what he thinks. you you no I of course with Mike it was always I always felt I could I thought I could go to Mike and tell him I just killed someone and he'd say to me there was probably a good reason um but you know relating is a process of maturing a process of going from total self-orientation self-centerness to a process of other orientation and other centerness that other people are just more important than me and and how hard that process is and and yet that's what recovery demands. I remember I was newly sober.

I couldn't be in grocery stores very long and I just couldn't I couldn't be in any place where there was a crowd very long, but particularly grocery stores made me crazy. So what I do is I'd buy 10 items at a time and go through the quick checkout line. So I'd go every other day and buy 10 items instead of go once a week and buy 50 items or something.

And um and so I I get his items. I get them in my little cart. I'd run up there and I put them on there.

Well, the guy behind the thing was uh guess he'd had a bad day. And he said to me, "Sir, you have 11 items here." You know, well, it was a joke. But he didn't know who he was dealing with.

You know, I was this far from him and he didn't recognize me. And uh and I lost it and I began to scream, "You're absolutely right. I don't deserve to shop in your store.

Look at the people behind me. They're looking at me. And I'm saying, "I'm amazed you people just don't take me out and lynch me." Uh, trying to sneak an 11th item through this 10 item line.

And um, so finally the manager came over, right? And a guy in a checkout thing saying, "It's okay, sir. It's I It was a joke.

It's okay." And I said to the man, the manager said, "What's going on here?" And I said, "You ought to promote this man." I said, "Here I am trying to sneak 11 items through a 10 item line." And he caught me, you know, and I was near tears. I was crazy, you know, and and uh so finally I said, "I don't deserve to shop here." And and the manager saying, "I'm trembling." He said, "It's all right, sir. It's all right." He said, "No, no, I don't deserve." And I stormed out of the store.

And I was in tears. I was crying. I couldn't find my car in the parking lot.

And and so finally, I got to my sponsor's house and he had this way of saying, "You did what?" you know. So, he drove me back to the Safeway in Georgetown and uh and he pointed and I went in the door and uh the manager came running over and said, "Sir, are you all right?" And uh and I said, "I I've had a a very bad life. Um I I um I almost died alcoholism a month before last." And uh sometimes I get carried away and um I pay for those groceries I didn't get.

And um I like to apologize to you and that other guy who um was sharp enough to count my items. And uh and I learned something about the process of beginning right relationship with the world around me. I mean, I mean, those were people.

I mean that man back there who thought he was just being funny and probably was a little bit bored and wanted to you know just you know you know I mean he had feelings and you know he had a job security to think about you know and and and the man who manages the store you know it's got can't be easy to manage a grocery store that people with 60 days of sobriety are coming to him and and uh you know and then the people standing in line behind me who just want to buy a few things and go home you know you and I'm subjecting them to this, you know, it's just it's the book is right. It's like a tornado going through life, you know, but but the difference between then and two months before was two months before I'd have gone to a bar and I'd have gotten two or three. You would agree with me.

And um and now it's different. Now it's called accountability. Now it's it's it's beginning the process of being being present to the results of my behavior and going back and trying to fix those things and things like that.

And and I continue to shop there. And every time I'd see that guy laugh and point, he'd say 1 2 3 4 and we'd laugh, you know, the best time. But but it's the beginning of this process, you know, and and you're not here to to to amuse me and this and that and and when I looked, no one ever understood their job description.

They just never understood their job description, you know. Um I had bosses, you know, drill instructors, sergeants, things like that who never understood their job description. Every I loved every job I ever had.

I've never had a job I haven't loved. I love work and I love jobs and I love doing things, you know, but I left every one of them. I always had a wonderful record and I always left angry.

And the reason I left angry was they didn't do what they were supposed to do. Oh, sure. They supervised me and they told me what to do and even told me to go in there and maybe get killed.

But but uh but they didn't understand their real job was to make me feel good about myself. You know, their real job was to do what I perceive my father hadn't done, and that is to affirm me. Affirmation is a very important thing to an alcoholic.

I remember um remember when my my wife was seeing a psychologist which explained part of why I drank. I was married to a crazy woman and um and I knew what would happen. She she invited me to come with her because he wanted to talk to me and I knew what she had done.

She told him all these stories about my drinking and um so I went in there and um and he said to me u he asked me about my drinking and I made up my mind I was going to try to tell him the truth and to the best of my ability to what I knew to be the truth I was deluded. Uh and he asked me how much I drank. I said I drink a lot.

I said I probably drank a half a day which was about half of what I was drinking at the time but I never counted it if unless I paid for it. You know if somebody gave me booze I didn't count it. It's like my liver didn't know.

And um and and uh so and I said to him this that terrible terrible time of truth. I said to him, "Tell me, doctor, do you think I'm an alcoholic?" He said, "Certainly not." He said, "U" he said, "But you will be if you keep drinking that much." And I said, "Well, when doctor, I mean, I thought it was important." And uh and he got mad. He said, "I don't know, a couple years." So my immediate plan was to quit in a year and a half cuz I I had enough troubles I didn't need to be an alcoholic, too.

And uh he told me my real problem was I had never been properly affirmed. And he said to my wife, he said, "This man has no self-image. In part of it's your problem because you've been tearing him down.

You've been attacking his manhood." And I remember thinking, "I don't know what we're paying this guy, but he's worth every dime." And um he told me that what I needed to do was to be affirmed. So he gave me these lists of affirmations, my very own Keith's affirmations, it said. and and my wife Marilyn was to stand with me in the morning as I affirmed myself in front of the mirror because her being there would undo some of the damage she had done.

And um and I was so pleased to find out I wasn't an alcoholic. I got very drunk that night. And um and the next morning I was firming myself all alone and again and um and I never forget I stood in front of that mirror and I looked into those yellow bloodshot eyes and and I had my affirmations.

I was trembling a little and uh and and and I looked in the mirror and I said, "Keith, today you're a winner. Today you're a wonderful husband. Today you're a wonderful husband.

Today you're a loving father. Today you're a a uh good researcher." I got about halfway down the first page and I said, "Today you're like crap. That's what you I may have been an alcoholic, but I wasn't stupid.

I mean, I knew that none of that stuff was true. And but, you know, the psychologist was right. I mean, I did need to be affirmed, but but but not that way.

You know, I needed to be affirmed. I needed to be in touch with reality. You know, my affirmation comes from the fact that, as Mike explained beautifully these last few days that I have a higher power who loved me so much, when I asked him how much, he said, this much.

I have a God that loves me. That's why I'm not junk. It's not because I manipulate you into telling me I'm okay.

That's not why I'm okay. I don't believe it. I'll tell you how I knew this to be true.

My sponsor had my first sponsor had tremendous insight into the alcoholic personality. And I remember I said to him, I was going to try this out on him. I said, "You know, Dan, I've done a few things I'm ashamed of." And he said, "A few." He said, I said, "Well, what I mean is I'm not really the man I present myself to be." And he said, "You're one of the biggest phonies I ever met." I said, "Well, no, no.

What I'm trying to get at, Dan, is is I've done some bad things." He said, "You've done more bad things than you'll ever He said, if you had any idea the bad things you've done, you'd throw yourself under that bus over there, you know." And uh I said, "Well, I said, I've you know, I have heard a few people." He said, "A few people." He said, "You're like a landmine going off in the midst of human beings." He said, he said, "If you had any idea how many people you hurt," he said, "you'd end your life right now." I remember walking away thinking, "Here's a man who knows me." You know, he knew how I really felt. And so that's why Alcoholics Anonymous, before I begin to relate to others, it strips everything away. It strips everything away.

And all I can rely on is the faith in and the love of God and the people around me. And gradually and slowly, it begins to build that foundation. they talk about in the steps solid foundation because we're going to walk through the archway into a new way of life.

Somebody said to me one time, I I have a lot of fun. I have a graduate degree in psychology. I don't don't spread that around, but but but I do.

And I I love psychologists. I really do. Psychology is a a a pseudocience that exists from the neck up.

You know, it's really it's it's Mike talked about the spirit leading the intellect which leads the emotions. Okay. Psychology let the spirit get way ahead of it.

And so psychology is the intellect leading the emotions. How does that make you feel? Like what difference does it make?

You know, I had ran into a couple psychologists at an early AA meeting and uh I thought that that AA meetings were where you share your feelings. I mean, I'd been in treatment. That's what we did in treatment.

Treatment, we shared our feelings. And I needed to belong in alcoholics anonymous because if I didn't belong, I was going to die. And I went into this group, right?

And there about 14, 18 people, something like that. And and they had a topic. And I didn't pay any attention to this topic because it got to me.

I had some feelings to share. And I shared my feelings. And a great hush came over the crowd.

And then they went on with the meeting. And um next week I went in and the guy pulled me aside and he said, "You've been sober all week?" I said, "Yes, sir." He said, "That's wonderful." He said, 'Now tell me. He said, uh, he said, 'We had a business meeting last week, and he said the the vote was 12 to nothing.

Nobody gives a damn how you feel. He said, 'We interested in what you do.' He said, this is a program of action. And it really is a program of action.

He said, if you don't like the way you feel, wait five minutes. It'll be different. And it is.

It is different. So once they unders on once I understood the basic laws I could begin this process called the steps which would fix my emotional distress and my insanity and all the rest of it. The emotions I reflect early in my recovery are are simply symptoms of the insanity under which I suffer.

Okay, the lack of peace of mind under which I suffer. And I try I was a guy running around in a grown-up body with the emotions of a teenager. And I was trying to make sense out of life.

Can't happen. I was a guy who desperately needed to be taken by the hand and taught. And of course the 12 steps did that.

Mike talked about different types of relationships this week. And you know clearly the primary relationship is my relationship with God. And I was very distrustful of God.

I never related directly to God. I went and got a degree in theology so I could learn about God. So thinking if I knew enough, I wouldn't have to relate to God.

And I'll tell you, the first time I truly related to God was when I did my fifth step, the way the man who heard my fifth step had me do it. He said, "Take your fifth step or your fourth step after you've completed it and go to a place where you experience the presence of God and tell God what you've done and who you are." And I said, "He was there when I did it and he was there when I wrote it. If he wanted to see it, that's his business." He said, "No." He said, he said, "He's not the guy in trouble.

You are." So I went to a chapel and I sat down and I got out my forep and I said, "God, this is who I am." And I think for the first time since I was a child, when I used to run by the church to talk to God in the tabernacle, I'd say, "I'm going to go play ball now. You can come if you want to. I'm not very good, but I'm getting better." and I talked to God and he was my friend and he would accompany me places.

From that day until that day, I had not dealt directly with God and I told him exactly who I was. And when I left her, I was no longer afraid of him. And that was the beginning of that relationship upon which all other relationships are built.

I'm working I I like to work with guys. I sponsor a fair number of guys and and they they are the light of my life. And uh and every guy that I've ever worked with, I believe, has got to get it right with dad.

We talk a lot about dad. And I don't believe that a man ever matures, ever grows up, and ever accepts his rightful place in God's universe until he gets it right with dad. Whoever dad is or was.

And it's got nothing to do with what my dad did or didn't do. Got nothing to do with that. That's a shopping list that belongs to a child.

That's a kid who kicks his heels and makes demands. And I was 35 years old and I was still making those demands on my father who never told me he loved me. And we were poor and on and on and on.

And I I remember saying to a guy in a one time I said, "Yeah." I said, "We were poor." And and you know, we never got much of a chance. And he said, "Don't you have a brother who's president of National Steel?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Where'd he live?" You know, don't you have a brother who's a vice president of AT&T? Well, yeah.

Did he live with you? Well, he slept in the bed right next to me. Three of us in the bed.

He said, "Wonder what happened to him?" He said, "You should have slept on that side of the bed." You know, and the insanity of blaming. I mean, the delusion is a wonderful phenomenon. And and I believe that I sponsor a man.

I don't want to tell his story, but he's 43 years of age and he hasn't seen or spoken to his father in 40 years. He has a vague memory of his father. Now, his father over the years from time to time has tried to make an attempt, but after all, you can never pay me back for what you've done to us.

And like most sons, many of us end up carrying mom's water, too. You know, if you have sons, don't pull them aside and say, "You're the only one who understands me." Don't do that. You know, that's where Edipus got his start, you know.

Don't do that. The one who needs to understand you is your husband. That's the one you have made the sacred covenant with.

Have made a sacred covenant with God. Somebody mentioned a prophet. I love the prophet's description of parents.

You know, parents is the strong bow that shoots this life, this arrow down the path of life. You know, don't give your children roles that aren't theirs. Sanity.

Sanity is knowing and living your role. That's what sanity is. This guy wrote his father a letter because he owed him an amends.

And you know why you owe amends to a parent? Because perhaps you didn't honor them. I didn't say like them.

I don't say affirm them. I don't say accept. It's honor them.

It's to honor them. I couldn't honor my father. My father was the greatest guy in the world.

And I became eight. And my father was as dumb as a box of rocks. One day he was dumb.

Now the guy I was hanging with who was a year older than me who had failed the third grade was smart. He was smart you and dad all of a sudden was dumb. And dad was worried because he was worried that I was idolizing a kid who just failed the third grade.

And um and he began to compete with his kid. Don't do that if you're a father. You can't win.

Um but what had happened to me was I had never honored my father. My father was dumb. He didn't understand stuff.

He just didn't I know. Okay. All right.

He worked all his life and he raised 11 children. He sent them all to college. But I mean, the guy was not, you know, was not a very smart guy and and uh and you know, and he finally bought a car after the last kid who wanted to go to college went.

He bought a car. So, he finally had a car. He was 65 years of age and he had an automobile cuz well, the kids could always use some shoes.

Stupid stuff like that, you know, dumb stuff. And uh I could have had a car. I could have been dating.

I could have had a lot more companionship in high school than I had. And u I mean, double dating, you know, unless you're a voyer. uh not that it's no good or an exhibitionist.

Um and they just never understood stuff. And I remember the day as a result of the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous when I just I just honored him. And I remember it was in a beach house.

I had a beach house and he and my mom went down and lived in it. They'd never seen the ocean. Can you imagine that?

Had never seen the ocean. And they were down there and I was traveling. I was an officer with this hospital corporation.

Hated it. And so I just like to hang around dad and other familiar people, Mike and people like that. And I was down there and dad told me one he's sitting there rocking smoking a pipe and he said I he said you know what the problem was and I said what dad he said computers.

I said really? He said yeah computers. And he went back to a time when he worked in this factory and they got computers in there and once they got computers in there they never knew what they were doing or what they had.

He said you know if you punch a hole in the wrong place in a card now they hadn't had cards and computers for a while. He said, "If you punch a hole in the wrong place in the card," he said, "you'll think you have 5,000 couplings that you don't have." Now, in the old days, I'd have said, "What the hell does that mean? That's the stupidest thing I ever heard." But, but I honored my father.

And what I said to him was, "You know, Dad, I never really looked at it that way before." Which was true. I had never looked at it that way before. Honor is a God-given commandment.

What I'm talking about, you know, you may not like this word, but what I'm talking about is covenant relationships. When you're a son or you're a daughter, when you're a child, you have a relationship that carries with it covenants. You don't have to be faithful to the person.

The person has nothing to do with it. You're faithful to the covenant of being a son or being a daughter. The big big book says that that that's a commandment with promise.

And the promise is long life. And I know that Mike's relationships with his children are spectacular. I've watched it develop.

I've watched it develop. He didn't go to that man and tell him what he thought of him for what he had done because his sponsor stopped him. I, on the other hand, ran into him one time and told him what I thought of him.

But, uh, I'm not involved. Um, but at any rate, um, uh, it's a covenant relationship and that's the key to this thing. That's why when I'm in a relationship, I stop and ask myself, what's my description in this relationship?

What is it? Somebody said to me not long ago, I was down in a conference in in Texas. An old friend of mine I've known since I got sober.

Great great gal. She said, "Julia must really be something. Julia is my wife." And I said, "How is that?" She said, "You know, all these girls," he said, "You know, you know who, you know, coming up to you and all this stuff and the fact that you're always so proper and you're always this, you're always that.

Julia must be something." And I said, "Well, Julia is something. She's the finest human being I know." I said, "But that isn't why I do that. I do that because I'm involved in a covenant relationship.

And it doesn't matter what my wife does. It matters what I do. I'm not faithful to my wife.

I'm faithful to the covenant of marriage. Marriage was instituted by God. Marriage is a sacred relationship that's instituted by God.

And if I'm not faithful to that covenant, I can never expect the graces that come with that. Now, I happen also to be married to the finest woman I ever met in my life. I can't believe it.

I can't believe it. I married her. I can't believe she loves me.

I I really can't. I And And you know, it blows my mind. And And And so what I do is I let her.

I let her. There was a time when I monitored how I was cared about. You're caring too much.

What that means is I may disappoint you and then you'll leave me. You can only care so much. If you care beyond that, it's uncomfortable because you might want me to care more, too.

And I've done all I can do. And it's an attitude that sets me up to fail. And that's what is wrong in relationships.

My sponsor taught me about relationships. I was sober 40 years. I mean, I was I was over 40 years of age.

I'm sober 13 years, right? And I just gotten out another one of those relationships. You know, begin with the optic senses.

H boy, look at there. and then tries to go inside. And of course that never works.

Um but um but it was another one of those relationships where we used each other and we came away damaged and and and I'll never forget it. It was May the 4th or July the 4th, 1985. And I was at my friend Bob Brown's house up in Hope Mills and my friend Dick Corkran had come in and I had the guest room and Dick was sleeping on the couch and and I was just in agony.

I wasn't in agony over the loss of this woman. This was another woman. My friend Bob Brown used to say, "I think used to think I had 20 relationships." And I discovered I had one relationship 20 times.

And uh and this was the 20th. And I got on my knees and I begged God. I wept and I begged God to change me.

And I said, "From this day forth, I am never going to use a woman again with your grace. I'm never going to insult my manhood again with your grace. I'm going to live a celibate life.

and I'm going to seek only the knowledge of your will for me and the power to carry that out. But I can't do that without you. But that's not a big deal, is it?

I mean, I couldn't drink without him either. And I had not had a drink in 13 years. So, I knew that God could and would if you were sad.

And that night, I met my the woman who is to be my wife. I met her. I saw her.

I was struck by her. And I'm convinced to this day some 15 years later almost. Had I not made that commitment to God, I think I would have done out of reactions, out of fear, out of all the things that drove me all my life.

I think I would have done to that relationship what I did to every other relationship I ever had. And that is destroy it, ruin it. And and I went to the man who knew how to be married, my sponsor, our sponsor Jerry and my man who knows how to be married is married many, many years.

And he was I mean, he was really married. I said to him one time, I said, "You're even married out of town." you know, he laughed, you know, and he said, "I'm more married out of town than I am in town." And he said, "Because I miss her more than than I could believe." And I said, "I want that." And he said to me, "Okay, you can have that if you're willing to do certain things." And I set about doing those things. And it was interesting to me.

At 40ome years of age, 13 years of sobriety, every instinct I ever had was wrong. It's just amazing to me. I'd learned a lot about life.

I was doing a lot of things differently, but I wasn't doing interpersonal relationships any differently than I had when I was drunk. My first instinct, I went to my sponsor and said, "We're going to have an exclusive relationship." And he said, "No, no, no." He said, "You're not ready for that." And I said, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I am. I am." He said, "No, you're not." He said, "Look, Keith," he said, "you've developed this ability to have women who are friends." He said, "You go to to dinner with your friends." He said, "You go to movies with your friends." He said, "I want you to do that." He said, "I understand that you're not interested in intimacy.

That's fine." He said, ' But maintain these friends. And he said, I said, 'Why?' He said, 'One day you'll know.' I said, 'Okay.' And I just don't question him. And I did it.

And one day I went to him and I said, 'I know why.' And he said, 'Why?' And I said, because my first instinct is to look at someone as lovely and as beautiful and as wonderful as Julia and say, if she could pick anybody but me, she would, I better get her now. And I would move into a form of relationship that was much more than I was ready for. that carried new responsibilities, new job descriptions with it.

And I wasn't yet ready to fulfill those, you know, and he said, "Now you're ready." So he began to have an exclusive relationship. An exclusive relationship is different. If you look at the job description for job description, exclusive relationship, you know, what you do when you're away from her is her business.

What it is her business. She has a right to look at your calendar. And she even has a right to ask you to reserve a day or two because she might want to do something.

I can't go through with it. This is about me. Don't you?

It's about me. I'm Mr. Aa.

You're Justin Allenon. What can you do that's important? Just kidding.

Of course. But it startled me. And then one day I found myself going to her and saying, "Honey, this is my comm these are my commitments for the next six months.

Um, is this okay? you know, if if you want us to do anything, I wish you'd let me know so I could write it in because, you know, and on and on and pretty soon I I found that my life was her business, you know. And the more I did that, the more she loved me, the more we shared our lives, you know.

She'd say, "Well, I was kind of thinking it might be nicer to do just write it in." Well, I'd love to do that. I'd love to do that. I'd love to.

And what I try to do is I try to do things that I normally wouldn't want to do because she wants to do them. It sounds silly, but I'm telling you, pays great dividends. Great great dividends.

There are certain kinds of things she likes to do. I'm just not wild about. But she doesn't know I'm not wild about them.

She believes I'm wild about them. Now, is that dishonest? That's not dishonest.

My goal isn't to whether to do those things or not do those things. My goal is to please the woman that God gave me this covenant relationship with. That's what it's about.

The happier she can be, the happier I am. I always jokingly say to her, "The reason we get along so well is we have the same goal, my happiness." But, but that's really less true than it's ever been before. Her happiness is very important to me.

I try to consider her in all things and I do a couple things which I'll share with you and you can try if you like. One of the things I do is she she her eyes slam shut at 10:00. She is not a late night person and um I mean wherever we are you hear this crash and her eyes are closed and uh so she's often asleep before I am.

I mean I'm still I haven't had a drink in almost 27 years but I'm still an alcoholic you know. I mean, the sun goes down, my eyes get brighter. And uh and so what I'll do sometimes when she's asleep, I'll slip in and I'll pray over her.

You see, I'm given in this relationship certain responsibilities. It's called the man of the house. Not the tyrant of the house, not the dictator of the house, but the man of the house.

The spiritual well-being of our home is my responsibility. She's far more spiritual than I am. But the spiritual responsibility of my home is my business.

I pray. I sprinkle our house with holy water. I ask God to be there for us.

I uh every morning when I pray, I ask God if he'll allow me to love her more today than she loves me. And every day I fail. Every day I fail.

One day I thought I had her. Um her mom had passed away. And um and and I was I hearken back to when my first wife's father had died and she sat on the floor and baldled from 5:30 in the afternoon till 2:00 in the morning when her drunken husband came home.

and the floor around her was literally soaked from tears. She was eight months pregnant with our first child when my wife uh mother died. I was doing some work about a 100 miles away and I dropped it immediately and I ran home.

I called a guy a sponsor who took chicken to our house. If you're in the south and somebody dies, chicken shows up. Um you don't need they don't hang black stuff on the front door anymore.

They look for buckets of Kentucky fried chicken going in the door. And but he was there and his wife was there until I could be there because what happened to her was important to me. And all the way home I prayed that God would give me the power to be the kind of husband he would have me be.

Not the kind of husband I thought I was supposed to be, kind of husband he would have me be. And we did the things that you do. And uh and we went over to be with her dad and and and that night we're laying in bed and and I was just holding her and she turned to me just before we went to sleep and she said, "You'll have to forgive me for being so selfish." She said, "Here I am thinking about myself and you love mother too.

Is there anything I can do for you?" And I thought, "Damn, I almost made it. I almost made it." You can't outgive God and you can't out love your spouse. You can't.

It's a physical impossibility to outlive your spouse if you're trying to live your life based upon this principles of Alcoholics Anonymous. You know, there are other relationships that are critically important. The relationship of our children.

I have a responsibility for the physical, emotional, and spiritual welfare of my children. And I failed miserably in many, many ways with my children. But what I did do was thank their mother and their stepfather for what they did for them when I wasn't there.

And what I've done is I made myself available. There comes a time when your children become adults. And then my responsibility then is to let them be adults and let them suffer the consequences of their decisions and their behavior.

If I'm still trying to protect them like they're 12 and they're 22, I owe them an amends. When you're 22, you clean up after yourself. When you're 12, your parent cleans up after you.

See, our relationships change as the people about us grow up. I was a big brother and to be a big brother in an Irish family is no small phenomenon. And I didn't understand it.

I didn't understand my job description. And I remember I went to make amends to my brother Larry who was uh sober seven years next month. But I went to make amends to Larry many years ago and he was still drinking.

And uh and I said to him, I said, "Larry, I'm sorry I haven't been the brother that I'm supposed to be." And I really apologize for that. And he said to me, he said, 'You know, he said, 'I remember when you were in the Marine Corps, he said, "You were the greatest thing in the world." He said, "I thought about you all the time." He said, "You were coming home on leave." And he said, "I was out on the porch the day before you were supposed to come home." And mom said to me, "Larry, what are you doing out here?" And Larry was about 10 then. And he said, "Well, I'm I'm waiting for Keith." And she said, "Well, Keith won't come till tomorrow." And he said, "Well, I thought I'd wait.

they might let him go early. So the day before I came home, he was sitting on the porch waiting for me. And early the next morning, he was back out there and he described me getting out of the taxi cab.

And he told me, he said, "I'll never forget that as long as I live." He said, "You had those two shooting badges on. You fired expert with a rifle and a pistol." I don't know how he learned that. Then he described the ribbons I had.

And he said, "You took that seabag. It was like it was a feather. You just put it on your shoulder and you walked up the steps." And he said, "I was so excited, I wet my pants." He said, "I I hoped you wouldn't see me, but I wet my pants." And he said, "I was trembling all over." And he said, "You rubbed my head and said, "How's it going, kid?" And then you never spoke to me again for the next two weeks.

I didn't know that I was important to him. I was like something on the end of a stick to me. And I didn't know that I was important to him.

From that day till this, nothing he ever does is dumb. Other people look at him and scratch their head, saying, "What the hell is he thinking?" I look at him and say, "I'm your big brother. Whatever you do is okay with me, and I love you just exactly the way you are." Now when he was drinking and using drugs, I wasn't loaning him money.

But I never ever withheld my love for him from that day to this because finally I understood the job description of the covenant relationship of being a brother and a sister. I did the same with my sisters. I did the same with my mom.

God has given me people in the world. They aren't cutout figures that I move around suit me. There are people with whom I have the honor of sharing my life.

You know, you can't be an alcoholic synonymous and not talk about the relationship between sponsor and pigeon or now spons I remember I was just a pigeon. And u and delighted to be one believe me and what's the relationship? What's the relationship?

Well, nobody can can define it for you. I think it's important to figure out what it is. What I can't be is what I'm not.

And I don't sponsor guys as well as a lot of other people do, I guess, because God will say to me, "You want me to call you every day?" And I always say, "Best of luck. If you can get up with me every day, you're doing better than me, my wife, or anybody else who knows me." You know, you don't need to call me every day. Now, if you want to call every day and I'm there, I couldn't be happier.

But you don't need to do that. You know, my relationship with the people I sponsor is just as a guide. It's just as a guide.

I hope they develop the kind of trust in my help and sharing that I've developed in my sponsors. I've had three sponsors and I've developed total trust, near total trust in all three of them. I met with my sponsor last week.

We had one of those meetings. He likes to go to certain restaurant and we meet at this restaurant and we say to the waitress, um, we'll leave a big tip, but we'll be here four or five hours and we are. And we go through everything that's going on in my life.

I bring him up to date. I catch him up. I get him current with everything.

It's not even important that he give me any advice. It's just he says, "Yeah, huh?" No. Or he'll say, "Have you looked at it this way?

Have you looked at it that way?" Then I sit down and I list I have listed before I get to them every person I sponsor and I go through every one of them and what they're doing and what I think is going on and this and that and have I done this right or how would you have handled this or have I blown this or do I owe an amends or whatever it might be. I go through every one of them because I believe that God puts people in my life to sponsor and I believe it's a covenant relationship. I believe that God put them in my life because maybe I'm the guy who can say what it is they may need to hear, you know, and there have been hundreds of them by the grace of God.

Hundreds of them. And I take everyone very, very seriously. I'm not responsible for whether they stay sober and I don't get the credit and I don't get the blame.

But I have that responsibility. I have a responsibility to my sponsor. My sponsor and I couldn't be more uh dissimilar in many areas.

You know, politically, he's a little left of Karl Marx. I'm a little right of a tiller of the hunt. But we don't talk politics.

We talk spiritual principles. And spiritual principles are always somehow down the middle. That's what we talk.

Uh I don't have to think like him. I don't have to be like him, you know, but I sure as heck better be considering what he has to say about the motives I have in my life. Not even necessarily the behaviors, but the motives.

There comes a time in sobriety when your motives are even more important than what you do. You're almost better off doing the wrong thing for the right reason than doing the right thing for the wrong reason. Motives is what dictate honesty.

If my motives aren't proper, then I'm being dishonest. I can't be dishonest and and reap the benefits of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. But when you talk about relationships or relationships, I believe that there are relationships.

And what I always did was get the job desript description messed up. I wanted to do with you on the first date. What I discovered on my honeymoon with my wife was a sacrament.

And I wondered why it wouldn't work out. I wondered why we dishonored ourselves and one another and why it didn't work out. Didn't work out because I didn't understand understand the job description.

It's impossible for me to use you and walk with God. It's impossible for me to do that. I'm blessed with a lot of relationships to this day.

I think the primary symptom of alcoholism is isolation. I don't think it's being drunk. I think it's isolation.

I was isolated long before I drank. Drinking just helped me fit in. To this day, my natural state is to be isolated.

My wife is a probation officer and she carries a big gun, which explains part of why I'm faithful, but just part of it. And she she uh goes out at night and and uh and if I'm not at a prison or I'm not at a meeting, I still love those nights home alone. I don't know why I still like those nights home alone.

There's still something about me that wants to be alone and wants to be isolated. But I have responsibilities. I made a compact with God.

What that means is that I have a job description based upon a relationship that I have. And I can withdraw from time to time and I can retreat from time to time. But most about what I'm most of what I'm about has to be God's business.

And God's business is seeing to the relationships that he's seen fit to put in my life. And they're sacred. They're different and they're sacred.

If you're my friend, I'm glad. But my responsibility to you isn't what it is to my wife. If you're a friend and fellow AA member, I appreciate it.

But my relationship and my responsibility to you is different than the responsibility of the man that I sponsor. My responsibility to them goes beyond my responsibility to you. I don't love them more.

Although I do love them or grow to love them. Some of them I don't like in the beginning, but I grow to love them. Okay?

But my responsibility to them is different. You know, I'm more concerned about their feelings than yours. I don't love you less, but I have a responsibility to them.

That's gradation of responsibility. That's what I've been taught in Alcoholics Anonymous. I have a responsibility to the guys that that my guys sponsor like a grandfather and need to be and want to be.

Okay? I have a lot of responsibilities and God's given to me and he's given me a job description and all I have to do is determine my job description. I can't thank you enough for inviting me to be part of this.

Um, thanks a million and again I to follow this weekend with Mike is just no small task and uh forget what I said and try to recall what Mike said. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to Sober Sunrise.

If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up as it will help share the message. Until next time, have a great day.