Welcome to Sober Sunrise, a podcast bringing you AA speaker meetings with stories of experience, strength, and hope from around the world. We bring you several new speakers weekly, so be sure to subscribe. If you'd like to help us remain self-supporting, please visit our website at sober-rise.com.

Whether you join us in the morning or at night, there's nothing better than a sober sunrise. We hope that you enjoy today's speaker. >> I'm Zach.

I'm an alcoholic. >> This is going to be a panel workshop broken up into four sections. We have Arnor K, whose name I butchered from Iceland here, and he's going to talk to us about a couple different things.

First, the first panel will be carrying the message where and how to find drunks and how to handle a wet drunk. He will talk on this for 40 minutes. After the 40 minutes, there will be 20 minutes for questions.

Just so everybody understands, a question is a sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information. >> Okay. So, I give you I give you Arnor >> >> I was like some of you you you know I've seen your faces during this week.

I've been nationalized. I've been had speak because I'm fresh blood. I'm I'm fresh meat.

Um, you haven't heard me before and and and and the the the the if you're if you're familiar with the with the word trolling, you know, as in as in, you know, being a bully online, uh, the bullies that that told me to to take a detour to to New Orleans, they they said, "Yeah, we're going to we're going to have you do this soon." And and and and I I'm I'm not an expert on alcoholism. I do however have a few thoughts on the subject and and hopefully a bit fewer words than thoughts. Uh, I I remember that that this thing here reminds me of the of the time that that I'm I I get sober in in late late 2000 or late last century as I as I like to put it and I come to into AA and I don't like anything that anybody has to say about anything about anything.

I'm combative. When I when I meet my my wrangler here at a meeting, I remember that he well, his version of the story is that that oh yes, he's not a step guy. He's not going to work.

He's not one not not one one of those step fundamentalists. And and and that's that was because I looked like a serial killer. I and I and that was just the glint in my eyes.

I said, "Angry young man." And the reason I'm talking about this and the reason I I I I spoke about this during the week is that I don't want and that's the last thing I want is I don't want to seem like somebody who brings the stone tablets down the mountain. I don't want to do I don't want to tell you what to do. I don't think I I I was once drinking Icelandic moonshine ly or or or country man as we as it's called and I come out of a blackout in downtown Rekavik and I am discussing uh religion or arguing religion and and and and and a lot of delusional ideas on religion with guys that are are members of a of a congregation called Maritas.

and maras are are known in in the Nordic countries. They basically help a lot of IV drug addicts. I come out of a blackout and I'm winning the argument.

That's the mindset I bring into AA. I don't want to be told what to do. The guys that told me what to do, that I needed to get a sponsor, that I needed to do something did not they didn't impress me.

The guys that that that I I I came into AA and I and I and I went, "Impress me, motherfuckers." You know, just tell me tell me something I haven't I haven't heard. Show me something I haven't seen. Because you know, fate worse than death is better than death.

And fate better than death is worse than death. You know, you haven't seen my hell. You haven't done what I've done.

And I haven't seen yours. And you know that that was a mindset that I that I came into AA with. I and and and and if anybody all all the guys that did sound like experts that did know exactly how to do things, how how long to pray, how many meetings to make, how many, you know, what constitutes an amends, what constitutes a a a thorough inventory.

They didn't impress me as much as the guys that didn't want to do it. but did it anyway. Uh there's this one one guy and he's still sober and he's doing fine.

He has a family. He told he shared the story during his talk that he he had this small VHSC camera with a small VHS tapes and he videotaped himself after coming back home and and you know pointing at the camera and and and shout and basically shouting at himself. Don't do it again.

Don't do it again. It's not worth it. It's not worth it.

Then he took the video out rewind the tape. put it in the adapter for the VHS and put it on on a shelf by the by the door and a piece of paper saying, "Watch this before you go back out." The reason he was sober, I I haven't done that. I haven't done that.

I I I'm I'm one of the delusional alcoholics. I don't know. I have no idea this is this is wrong or this is not working.

I I have no idea what what I don't know what's wrong with me when I come into AA. But he shared the story of making amends that changed my life. He made amends to his uncle that had sexually molested him.

He made amends to him. He didn't go and say sorry uncle that you molested me. He said, "Sorry, uncle, that I I used to talk about you behind your back back and use your sickness against you to to get me free of to to basically redeem me in my alcoholism." And that is something while you're there.

And this is this only happens at the fellowship. This doesn't happen on speaker tapes. This doesn't happen in the book, but this happens on a one-to-one we're in a speaker speaker meeting session.

And that basically nuked and paved my mindset on what this stuff is about, what a is about. At that at that point, I'm I'm doing inventory and I'm I'm doing something and and and it seems as if as if you're go if you're walking there's not a lot of hills here in New Orleans, but it it you know, it seems as if you can do staff work a certain way as long as you're walking walking uphill. You're walking uphill and as as long as it's hot or tough or strenuous, you you do fine.

You're sober. Your your your membership in a makes sense. But when you reach the top or not the top, it's not a summit, but it's more like a plateau.

Okay. Then things get funky. I come into AA.

I don't want anything anybody has to give me. I I fight the guys. I I I do I read this this this book here is the the translation of the big book that I grew up with.

I read this book defensively to find the loopholes. I don't want to do anything until a a a critical mass of people have shared stuff that is a bit more than physical allergy, mental obsession, spiritual malady and we and there is a solution. what there and it's here in in in chapter in the second chapter page 18.

But the exlo problem problem drinker who has found this solution who is properly armed with facts about himself can generally win the entire confidence of another alcoholic in a few hours. Until such an understanding is reached, little or nothing can be accomplished. It's facts about myself, you know.

I And the facts about myself have been the same the whole time. I do the exact same steps. I do use the same exact same big book, but I'm a bit more unrelenting, ruthless or grim than I used to be because I thought alcoholism was just about, you know, fixing alcoholism was just about getting sober and it's not.

Like if you if you heard me during the week, it is not. I I went batshit crazy. That's why the the the troll in the back, he he he he really liked that there was another new guy coming into AA that wasn't working step because it fit his, you know, way of doing AA.

And so I I do step work and I start with my biggest amends because I I knew I I in my in my in my in my fifth step I knew that if I wouldn't tell my this guy who was hearing my fifth step about the that thing that one thing AA would never be real. It would never be authentic. It just wouldn't.

So, of course, that was the last thing I mentioned. And he was eating French fries and like like it was was going out of style and and he he lost his appetite and he said, "You can drink on that for a long time. You had to have something you can drink on.

There had to be something that you can drink on on that for a long time. So, and that thing that that that thing. So, I start doing my amens, but I'm still trying to fix myself.

But what does the big book say about that? It says that that's not an end in and of itself. Our main purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and people around us.

and and you know, so there's a method to the madness. There's a method to the madness. I'm not just, you know, I I don't have anything scripted.

I have a big book and I have some some squigglings from from from Zakia and I have my experience and I'm translating on the fly. You know, I I this is not this is not something that is set in stone or or or licked into marble like like we some of us say in Iceland. Uh this is not there is no way what what the method however is you know I I I would sit in in in that meeting and I get these visions.

I've I've you know I've I've started telling about my vision stories but I'm sitting in a meeting and somebody's at the podium and I feel like like there's a like there's a there's a puzzle hovering in the in the in the air in front of the podium and and and he says yeah and that physical allergy and I was stamping on boxes and I was I was I was going nuts and I was you know that's the physical allergy and I would get a piece of the puzzle and then then he would say yeah and then I wrote everybody I down I hated and la and I got a piece of the puzzle and I got a piece of the puzzle. I got a piece of the puzzle and and during the meeting, which is usually an hour and 15 minutes, you know, I would get a piece of the puzzle, but there would be something missing in the in the in the middle. and doing AA as a guest as a guest as as a receiver was the reason that I didn't see or didn't get that last piece of the puzzle because you know if if if we go to page one of the big book first printing which was the doctor's opinion it then the doctor says in the course of his third treatment He acquired certain certain ideas concerning a possible means of recovery as part of his rehabilitation.

Okay. His own that is he commenced to pre present his conceptions to other alcoholics, impressing upon them that they must do likewise with still others. Period.

New sentence. This has become the basis of a rapidly growing fellowship of these men and their families. There's a program of alcoholics anonymous and it's in the big book and it's it is expanded upon in in the 12 and 12 and we get a lot of context from pass it on.

We get a lot of context from pass it on and Dr. about and and then you know the really nerdy of us if if you know any AA history buff dude talk to them get the stories go to it's called big aa history lovers or something it's a website and and it talks about it talks about the story of Fred what what's what the context of of that story is and it's because you know these are words on a paper like right but this is just like a recipe for bread. There is no this recipe only acquires meaning its fullest meaning when you bake a bread out of the recipe and if you only bake a bread for yourself you are losing out.

Okay. So I I'm I' I've started doing steps and I' I've done something and and I feel like Wy Cody like like it's like everybody is going beep beep and and I just and no really and and and guys are are that have been short a lot long you know they I have by that time I've started working staff so I'm basically eight months sober and I've started doing my mens at 10 and these guys are flourishing and I'm not because why they are working with others. They are carrying a message and I didn't feel like I could.

I didn't feel like I could because I hadn't learned all the tricks. I hadn't really didn't really know how to to show them how to do inventory. My first fourstep inventory was random.

It was it was it was you know you know there's a there's a bit of bit of force in chaos. It wasn't even even chaos. It was more it was more like a Jackson Pollock than than a than a than a than than Picasso, you know.

It's more like just whatever. And and And I talked to my talked to my sponsor about, you know, why why the why the why the hell do you know why why do why do I feel like that? I've been sober 10 months.

Why why do I why do I feel like that? And he said, "It's time to sit down and and read the next chapter together." and I go to his house and we sit in his kitchen and and he says, "Okay, go to page well, what is here?" 89 and and read and and he's there and he's, you know, just going he he's an you know. He's he's he he really really he really really is an He he is he he he he he has this thing that he seems to watch himself more than he he pays attention to others.

Uh uh he says okay read then I read chapter 7 working with others. Practical experience shows that nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when others other other activities fail.

This is our And then he would go stop stop go back read again. Yeah. Okay.

Practical experience shows that nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail. This is our and then he would stop me again and have me read it read it again and then he would I would read it when I would ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics.

And then he stopped and said, "What do you think that means? Okay, I'm okay. I know enough people in AA who know enough of the history of AA to know that this is not a grammatically correct.

This is not grammatically correct English. Not all of it. Okay?

It's not a a a quality piece of literature. It's not the guy who wrote it basically most of it. He had four years sober which is not a lot today.

He there is not a lot of insight. There's not a lot of, you know, this is not a like this is not like a like a religious text that has been polished and and and and and and and and made better over the centuries like like the like the European fables, you know, fables like like like Little Red Riding Hood and Iron John. I recommend that women who who want to want to yeah are desperate enough to to to check out why they're so up, why they feel up.

And I only mean the up women, you know. Check out check out the original Little Red Riding Hood. It's good stuff.

The the Disney version, the the Disney version is is very PC. Okay. The the part with with with Little Red Riding Hood eating her grandmother's inards and drinking the blood.

It's good stuff. And it tells a story. And this is not one of these pieces of literature.

It's not that deep. It doesn't have all that stuff. It doesn't have the wisdom of the ages distilled into a few words like fables do.

But at the same time, this book is written from a point of view. They something amazing happened and it was amazing. They didn't know what was going on.

They didn't realize they realized they had something big. So they started writing a book and this is the result. And they write pra their own practical experience shows that nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics.

I I hear I heard people heard somebody at a meeting talk about alcoholic three number three. His name was Bill Dawson. I I highly recommend I highly recommend Alcoholic 2.5, the one that didn't get sober.

Uh Dr. Bob's son shares about that in in one of his talks, but he eventually got sober that guy, you know, there's a but they their experience was that if you work with other alcoholics and not just work with other alcoholics but intensively work with other alcoholics that nothing, you know, no prayer, no meditation, no inventory, no Nothing. Nothing.

It works when and in the in in the in the multilith version of the big book, other spiritual activities fail. They removed that from the first version for some reason. It works.

If you really want to be sober, work with other alcoholics. Work intensively with them. If you if you if you want, you can talk to Zach about what what intensive means.

But but my I'm going with it's a lot. You know, it's a lot. It's not something that is easy or it's not not something that is like we say in in Icelandic.

It's not it's not something neat. It's not something that that fits my schedule. It's not something that fits with the rest of my life necessarily.

So, some of it does, some of it doesn't. It's intensive. Okay.

And then it then it continues. Then we have a new paragraph which is in in in in in literature means there's a new thought. Okay.

Life will take on new meaning. And I would get that last piece of the puzzle, right? To watch people recover, to see them help others, to watch loneliness vanish, to see a fellowship grow up about you, which means that you need to be in a fellowship to watch it grow.

You know it. This is not a solo program. Sorry.

It takes a village to raise a child. That's just just the way it just the way it is. Okay.

To have a host of friends. This is an experience you must not miss. Who?

Oh, the guy who is going to be a sponsor. No, the AA member who wants to be sober. He does not want to miss this stuff.

Okay. We know you will not want to miss it. We know frequent contact with newcomers and with each other is the bright spot of our lives.

And then in the multilith version there is another sentence that they removed and it goes like this. The kick you will get is tremendous. The multilith version for those who don't know is the is the original manuscript.

That's the the proper name is the multilith version. That's the manuscript they passed around. The kick you will get is tremendous because you know I I thought I had a problem.

I'm going to my first meeting in the car that I bought from mom. Paid the first payment, the down payment, but nothing more. And I I I'm I'm I'm feeling sorry for myself.

not having a job, not having a girlfriend, not getting things my way. And now they want to want to tell me it's that I'm also an alcoholic. I didn't come here to I came here I I I don't it doesn't even make any sense.

My my my train of thought at that time didn't make any sense. It was just it was gumbo. It was it was cold slaw.

was just yeah whatever. Uh and but there is a there is a there is a thing here in in in chapter 5 you probably some of you may may have read it before. Rarely have you seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.

Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to the simple program. usually men and women who are con constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves and I thought yeah this is about honesty this is about not stop yeah I should stop stealing at work you know it's about no it's about you have to do AA in a way that makes sense you have to do AA that is not just filling in the forms and it's not about just you know dotting the eyes and crossing the te's to be something and and and and and and and being on the receiving end of AA in a strong in strong AA like I got sober in that was a strong fellowship. They would call you out on your and they would hackle in meetings, >> but they would hackle old-timers only.

Uh, you know, and you know, yeah, >> you can learn a lot of stuff, right? But it's it's it's it's nothing. It is in the grand scheme of things.

When I look back, it's nothing. It's all it's not it's just enough to get me interested. Yes, sure.

I wanted to to to to be debtree. Sure. I wanted to to be able to sleep without killing everybody, you know, during the night, you know.

I you know, sure I I wanted that stuff and and I got enough personal experience like the one the story I shared in the be shared in the beginning that I I thought, yeah, maybe this is something that I should take a look at. And no, I don't want to because it's God and it's something and something and you haven't. You know, those guys hadn't even been to a Bible course like me.

You know, they they they knew nothing. Okay. And but honesty is is honest with results.

How is it going? Honest with your train of thought. How is it going?

I I my sponsor, he I'm a I'm six months sober and I'm I'm I'm talking to my sponsor and and and I I I I I'm driving my car, my stolen car, you know, it's mom's car. She doesn't need the money right now and you know, it's okay. But and I stop at this gas station where there's a vacuum and and something something and I'm talking on the phone like this and I'm I'm going through all the in in the car and I'm taking out the old bottles and throwing throwing them in the trash and and my sponsor is talking to me about that basically he's giving me a a summary of what the steps are about and he's up to step nine and it's about cleaning up around you and I go yeah like I'm doing right now.

And he could have told me, "Oh, you're, you know, I've I'm 6 months sober. I've been to a meeting every day. I've been, you know, I'm and I'm clueless, right?" And he could have said, you know, "Oh, you're such an idiot." You know, he would be fully justified in saying, "Oh, you're such a, you know, you're such a, you know, or whatever.

And but he said, "Yes, but there is a bit more." This book in your shelf is a tool waiting to be used. It's a tool. The steps, even the steps are not an end in and of themselves.

They're guides to progress. They are not something that I worship. I know some really really really interesting stuff with that you can do with inventory.

I and I shared about that in in the at the meeting this week but or or a bit of it but it's not a magic bullet. It's not a silver bullet. The silver bullet, you know, my membership in AA is about what I do for others.

That's 80% of what I what of my life of my recovery is what I do for others. It's about carrying a message and it's about it's about oneonone. It's not from a podium like this.

It's not. Sure, I can go up in a in a meeting in Oslo and give them a five minute version of something, but you know, sitting down with a newcomer is the most important thing. And so if we if if I paraphrase what I've said, the most important thing, the first thing the requirements to be able to carry a message so that the other end will receive it.

The first item is you need to have time to do it. There are two schools of thought, right? There's one that organizes and and and plans everything to the extreme and then come back with a bipolar 2 diagnosis.

Okay. And then there's the guys that are don't plan anything and they can't be relied on. We need to do something in the middle.

If I don't have, you know, I I go I use a my my method and that's just my method. I go I know I I live in in in Norway and it's totally different. A there is totally different from Iceland.

Just totally different. But I have to do something with that. I need to be able to, you know, do AA in a way in a way that makes sense to me.

And and and and that doesn't mean that it has to be on my terms. Okay? So I show up at a meeting with a cup of coffee and from time to time, you know, the troll will will will snatch a newcomer and we'll go out eat with them and we take it from there.

The most important thing is that I have time. If I don't have time, it doesn't matter how excellent my program is, it's of no benefit. And my excellent program for myself is not really worth anything for me really.

It's it's I've done some cool in AA and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. it.

I I don't I can't really go and Oh, yeah. But four years ago, I was so Oh, >> no. It's What am I doing now?

It's the RPM RPMs in the dashboard, not not you know, miles traveled. No, that only means you have a shitty car. If you, you know, and it's not the speed you're traveling the gearbox.

Yeah, I'll take this bit up to up to the 13th gear. No, it how effective you are. No, I don't get any peace from that.

I don't get any any I don't get anything from that. I I get for for for my effort the RPMs on the engine. That's the return.

Okay. I need to have time and I need to have up my life because nobody is is going to listen to anything I have to say coming from a place of, "Yeah, but I never did that. I I I never did that because you see I'm I'm so smart.

I don't really have alcoholism. You know, they they they won't trust anybody except they will only easier to trust somebody who has screwed up their life. So, be open about the screw screwiness.

Be open about it. You know, you know, that's why I I I I talk about peeing my pants and and puking on every square inch of my body except between my ass cheeks. you know, it's it's because that's that's the that's the kind of guy I am.

You know, I screwed up and and and that story from from Denmark, you know, finally when I get to the get to get to the, you know, I'm I'm going to go to the school, you know, I I go to Denmark, I go to a priest in Iceland and I cry. I'm in Denmark the next day and I'm going to go to go get an education and I I I get a place to stay and and I I'm feeling sorry for myself in the bus that I have to take this route every morning to school and yada yada yada and and and I go to down to the square and and I you know I'm standing there this town square small town you know nice pleasant town outside of Copenhagen called Glasaka if you want to look it up on a map and and I'm standing there and there's this this brick wall slash tree fence or whatever around the compound. And I can I I see there's a road into the compound and there's a sign and it says office.

And I'm standing there and I'm I'm thinking to myself, I will never ever cross this road. And I turn around and I go to my room and I drink some more beer. That beer that you could get eight beers for a dollar.

Okay. the margarine aftertaste beer, you know, and thinking that I'm totally in control of my life. Okay, these stories, they show that sharing these stories shows that you have that you have alcoholism, that you you are a man who has lost the power of choice and drink.

If you've lost the power of choice and drink, you are okay with what I call requirement number two. Number three, you need to have some done something about it. There is nothing in this book about that about getting yourself a sponsor, let alone then there's nothing in this book about your sponsor having to have to be two years over.

There's nothing at all. There's not even a hint in the in the direction of getting yourself a sponsor. Not a hint.

If you find it, let me know. I've I've read this book a lot in in three languages, you know. It's not it's not that.

It's mostly about, you know, it's the invisible rowboat. That story you you guys have, you know, just get in the boat and row, you know. Yeah.

Yeah, but it doesn't make any sense. Yeah, but let's open it, dude. You know it's and when that is there you are able to carry a message that is many it's an order of magnitude more important that you get someone's trust than the fancymancy stuff you know the consequence list or or the powerless and and and powerlessness list or whatever.

All that stuff is secondary. Get them to to to trust you. And you can't do it if you come down the mountaintop from the mountain top with it.

You know, I'm here as a The the the you know, I I I how how do you prepare for this? You know, I drink moonshine. Okay.

That's the stuff I do. You know, I pee my pants to to you know, until the salt from my urine makes the mattress crunchy. Okay, you know, I I'm I I I'm not an expert.

I'm just trying to do my very best. And I use this book. I use this book and I doubt myself and I doubt the stuff that I hear in the rooms.

I doubt everything and I try anything. Yeah. Thanks.

>> >> So now will be the question and answer period. So how we will do this? You will raise your hand, answer the question.

Either myself or Arnor will repeat it into the microphone. And please remember a question is a sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information. We'll go by show of hands.

Yes, sir. >> Hi, >> Shane. >> Shane wants to know if this is an honest program.

What an honest program. I I I honestly don't know what that means, but kidding. Uh, so I I I thought honesty was about not stealing and and not lying and and not something but but my experience shows that it's a bit more you know I'm I'm responsible for my actions, my reactions and my inactions and and it's I need to be honest in all three.

Uh I the definition I used is based on an Icelandic expression and it translates really difficult but it's stunt scoron it checks out think of you think of your program as something that you write you know that you write down to like a uh books you know not not a book but but you put it on the books you you write something down and you have 24 hours in the and you have a child and you have something you have uh you know you have to go to a to a iron lung you know for 2 hours a day or whatever you have stuff that you absolutely need to do. The honesty of it is being so open with it that you can write it down everything you do and show it to somebody else. You don't have to show it to everybody else.

It's just that if anybody finds out that's okay. Yeah, he didn't have time to make his home group make it to a meeting at his home group every week becau because he has his child every week, you know, and and yeah, if if you don't have a child and and you pre pretend like you do, you're dishonest, you know. It's not it's not about lying, you know.

We have two different words for honesty and lying. And there's a reason for that, you know. It's it's it's honesty is more about doing everything you do with a whole heart and and if you if you if you want to do this program have asked that is allowed but the results are basically dictated by your honesty.

You know, how fully, you know, how how deep down into the ground you you you you you press the plow to to give you an expression. >> Hey, my name is Mike. Mike, >> I say that because when >> Good question.

Okay. So, to repeat the question, he my guest, when was a good time to start sponsoring and and to give you uh uh my Okay. And this is not I'm not just saying this to be funny.

As soon as you stop throwing up, uh a good time. So if if there's a book called How It Worked, and it's out of print, but you can get the PDF for free online, and it tells the story of Clarence Snider, uh the the the guy the founder of AA in Cleveland, and he was he was an Okay, just to give you a a summary of his story, he's drinking. He is the reason that they have bars in the in the seller windows in the Midwest.

Uh he is he is the reason that that they put extra extra padlocks on on on on bars you know after closing he his story he's basically drink in in the end he's drinking something from tins that can only be bought in wallpaper stores uh he is basically from drinking and he comes to Dr. Bob and he has this, you know, and he heard about the the Cleveland, no, the the Akran axe murderer and he, you know, he's paranoid and he's the ax murderer, so he splits, you know, come come backs two to two something two months later or sometime later and then he says, "I'm willing to take the chance of him of Dr. Bob being the ax murderer." So, because he's had it he's had had had it with drinking and and he wakes up with Dr.

Bob screaming at him, "Do you believe in God? and and he he gives a yeah well what is belief and you know when do you believe and and and and Dr. Bob yells at him again do you believe in God and and and the guy answers yeah I guess I have to great that's just that's the that's the answer I wanted says Bob and and they go down on the knees and and after a week he's basically just getting the cramps out of his body you know the the stiffness then Dr.

Bob tells tells him go to Cleveland and while he's asking what should I do now that I've I'm sobered up go to Cleveland and fix remies and that's the answer and he goes to Cleveland and he goes goes to this to to this bum house and he finds the perfect newcomer a guy who had had pierced his pants and he was frozen to the to the ground and he scrapes him up and takes him to the guest house he's staying at and he thaws him and he called him the perfect newcomer because he had something called alcohol paralysis. He he could only swallow and blink his eyes. And and and and according to the book and what Mitchell told told me, uh that guy never drank again.

If I remember correctly, a good time is well, like one one one American in my group in in Oslo says, "How about right now?" Yeah. Do you need to do amends? Yeah.

How about right now? Do do you need to do inventory? Yeah.

How about right now? Now is always a good time to do start this stuff. >> Screw up and you kind of like about like being in the bed like messed up stuff I used to do.

you're still really sick and still screwing up constantly. Should you be open and honest with him about that considering they may look up to you as a sponsor? >> Yeah.

>> Okay. So to repeat the question which is a really good long question. Uh should it should you be open with the guys you're working with?

Uh you know and do do you sacrifice your stature you may have in their life? Absolutely. You know, like like we used to say back in the day, nobody's perfect.

You know, it's it's it's I I have a guy you can talk about too about that. But anyway, so if if if you're if you're carrying a message, you know, from a from a point of your view of perfection, you know, crossing all the tees and dotting all the eyes, I think you're missing the point. There's a there's a there's an author um called Ernie Kutz.

He wrote a talk his doctorate thesis about alcoholics anonymous and his second book is called the spirituality of imperfection. It influenced me a lot. There are three books that influenced me.

Big book, this book and another spirituality of perfection and and another book. You don't have to be, you know, you don't need to look like a model. If it's basically, you know, if he looks up to you, that's fine.

That's great. You know, you have to be able to, you know, carry your your tail feathers with grace, right? You know, hold, you know, you need to be, you know, and and there's a fable on that.

We we can we can we can talk about that later. But the Iron John, the fable I mentioned is about that. It's about looking at your scars and your hurt with beauty and see the beauty of it.

And your stumbling way, your bumbling ways are the grace of this program. It's, you know, the spiritual experience is not just for the guys who who who, you know, give the the program perfect lip service. It's not you know it's it it we we if you have if you have humbly given your character defects to God whatever he may or may not remove is you and that's is where you supposed to be.

Don't don't try to be something you're not. Don't try to be fake spiritual. newcomers will will pick that up like I did, you know, coming out of that blackout in a heartbeat, you know?

Absolutely. It's it's because they know they can't be perfect, right? So, why not show them that it's okay to be imperfect?

Why not? And I watched my my my my the man I called my sponsor. He he he tried doing that, you know, not sharing about stuff and and and he stopped doing it because it's a lot of it's a whole lot of pressure.

It's just a whole lot of pressure and and and a spiel. It's a spiel. So, you know, be broken, be imperfect.

It's it's it's the it's you know I if if the newcomer can see that you you can be doing okay with your imperfectness that's more stuff that you have you can use to help them with >> in the back kind of Yeah. He asked whether whether it was whether it was whether it matters homosexuals sponsor straight people or or men sponsor women. And and you know there's a there's a you know in the there's a there's a a piece of text that is hard to Google but I found once.

It's the eight deadly sins sins and and and it's from a tribe in somewhere in the desert uh or or monks in the desert and they they split pride into two. your regular pride and then something called vain glory and and vain glory is is a is guilty as charge u or I have been um so vain glory is if you if you're sponsoring women and and just to show that you can I don't think that's the correct way of doing things you know if you are if you're trying to reach a newcomer you know like I done staff work with women. Sure.

Inventory and and fif staff and stuff. Yeah. But I need to be 100% certain 100%.

That I wouldn't try to use that to get them into bed with me. And I also since since since since since then that thing that's only half of the picture because if they want me to sponsor him because I am vain glorious. It's not the thing.

It's not the right thing. Sponsorship is based on trust. absolutely based on trust and not the trust of of being able to to you know he will not spill my secrets.

I don't have any secrets anymore. Uh it's it's not that it's it's based on on I talk to my sponsor once in a while and and just to check in. Okay.

If the newcomer, you know, I I I I have a hard time understanding how gay men are not men. You know, I I I you know, it doesn't make any sense to me that they need a woman sponsor. You know, it just it just doesn't this, you know, I and I know you know half of the half of the requirements that there's no chance ever that I'll ever do anything.

But if they are doing it, I just go I just go, "No, you need somebody else." But then again, I don't sponsor anybody. I'm not anybody's sponsor. I'll go into that later, but but I don't I don't call myself a sponsor.

I I I or I try not to. But if you can help, if you can be one of the village that helps somebody through a difficult time or talks to somebody, then that's great. You're doing 12step work.

You don't have to have a title at all. And I think women help men, you know, and men help women in the fellowship and in the co, you know, out for coffee afterwards and all that stuff. >> Okay.

Yep. What should you do? They're saying that they're saying I'm not right now.

Yeah, he asked what what do you do with newcomers that lie about their sobriety and and and and stuff like that. I I have some experience with that. Uh uh they uh uh and and not just with that they're drinking, they're smoking pot or or they are doing steroids.

That's really popular in Iceland. uh and and to to you know they are calling you for a reason. They call me for a reason.

You don't you know if you want to if you want to have somebody who validates your take it easy la ideas about alcoholics anonymous. I'm not the guy to talk to. You know I I'm just not.

And and and they call me for a reason. and they usually call me because they know I'm just as nuts or as as they are that I'm coming from a similar spot and I don't you know there's no okay so if if I'm working with somebody and he has to fulfill a standard for me to be able to talk to them or or give them direction I'm not carrying the message to them right because I am blocked I I believe in working with the willingness that the what that the alcoholic has. And I'm I'm lucky.

I'm lucky. The asset that I have is I've done some stuff that is not nice. Okay.

And I've made amends to the best of my ability. I am what is known in the in the in the in the spiritual acrobatics of AA. I'm current with my amends.

Uh and and I I've I believe that that this stuff is either early days, but if you're talking about a long-term member of Alcoholics Anonymous that can't keep it together, it's about amends. It's about unmade amends. alcoholism, you know, you don't do this to yourself, you know, you don't drink yourself to death or close to death or into bad health or or or or your liver gangrness because you want to because it's fun or anything.

You are compelled and that compulsion comes from unmade mens with being all up inside. And so I I you know I just this fall I I I there's a there's a dude in dude in Oslo and and I I told them dude yeah you want to write the new inventory you need to need to do you want to start from the beginning. I don't want to you know I think that's a waste of time.

I am allowed to be wrong about that. I am fully allowed to be wrong. Being wrong is a human right.

Okay. If you don't use your human rights they will take them away from you. Okay.

If you don't use your rights. Okay. Um, and I basically just told them, you know, dude, let's talk again when when you flown back to Iceland and made your started making yours.

You have you don't need to show up for a job. You don't need to do anything. You know, you have nobody's demanding anything of you.

You have nothing but time. You have nothing but money. And he has a lot of money.

Okay? And just do it. and and and it's intuition basically.

Use your intuition and there is room for experimentation. Absolutely. Absolutely room for experimentation.

Absolutely. There is experiment, you know, experiment, you know, have him do whatever, you know, do something else, do something new. So, there's no hard and fast answer to that question, but, you know, talk to talk to some of the guys around you and and you know, say what they have to say.

you know, squeal the newcomer to the sponsor. I squeal newcomers to the sponsor all the time. Doesn't matter whether the newcomer has one or 20 years or whatever.

I don't care. You know, squeal the newcomer to the sponsor. Absolutely.

Somebody who has the newcomer's trust. Sorry, I couldn't do any better. So yeah, um the question was how do you make amends to a person where you've been in an argument, but you weren't wrong.

Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah.

to make amends. If you if you take if you if you use a dictionary or or somebody who is 25 years of dictionary in his head, uh amends means to make right and and you know you are allowed to be wrong. You are allowed to be wrong also in your amends.

You don't have to do you know this this and let me it's a delusion it's idiotically delusional to think that you have to practice amends. Okay just think about it just think a bit about amends. Amens is not something that you that you should be if you start with the easy ones.

If you take your grandma and you know and you work your way up there and then you then you end with a girl you you stopped in kindergarten or whatever. You know, you are trying to be better at something that you shouldn't be good at. You just shouldn't be good at making amends.

That's running the show. That's a spiel. I I in you know the the the closest parallel to what I think you're you're asking about is you know is the story that I that I shared about the guy who was molested by his uncle.

He was willing he was not willing to take chances with his alcoholism because he he knows he has alcoholism. You know when he shot that video it was not about his uncle, right? He just didn't want to drink anymore.

He he did what he could do, you know, and we clean up our side of the street. We we and and and making amends is basically and and this is my humble opinion. It's not about saying sorry.

It's not at all. There are a few requirements before that. You have to face the hurt, the damage caused, the hurt caused.

That's the f the major thing make you know fixing that with a $50 bill or whatever is secondary. You know it's this is about facing life. Absolutely.

legal ramifications as in as in go he might go to prison. Yeah. Yeah.

He >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Yeah.

The question was, how do you deal with with helping somebody make amends where he might have personal consequences? Uh, okay. I don't live in the US.

Your legal system is totally different from the rest of the world. It is. It's common law.

is only used in Australia, New Zealand, the UK, and the US, and only partly here, interestingly enough. Uh we have a civil law system. Uh it's different.

Um so I'm not a lawyer. Uh I the but there is this guy one guy in in in in that I know who who made all his amends but he didn't pay that back the tax map and it was a lot of money. It was I think it was $2 million and he was going out in AA and he was sponsoring guys and you know but he felt you know not real and and he has he's waiting to be called in to to serve time.

He's not at the top of the list in in in Iceland. We we inmates vote in Iceland in prison. Okay.

It's a different system. Okay. Uh he and he's willing and and and the statute of limitations is about to run out, but he was willing and and the big book has a story about that, too.

You know, no more. One more question. One.

No, no. I I'm asking I'm I'm He's my handler, by the way. How long do you sponsor?

>> How long do I sponsor a person? >> I if somebody asks me for help, I will do the big book. I will I will do read the big book if that's the thing to do.

With retreads that know AA and rank again, that's usually not the thing to do. we will go and and and and and do other things, not book stuff even, not literature- based stuff. I would go and and and put down hardwood floors for for one guy and that's how his sobriety is the only sobriety that he's ever had that stuck.

We did hardwood floors and that's why I do this. you know, uh I will not I when you say yes to working with somebody and he wants to do stuff, I believe that is forever. As long as he wants to talk to you, you are well I well as long as he wants to talk to me, I am bound by a lot of things.

I don't want to say honor but but I'm bound by a lot of things to to be there for him. Absolutely. But there is no set time limit on how long Steph works takes.

No, but if you're thinking about the art arts and crafts stuff, you know, the the the 4 to9 which I call art arts and crafts, you know, it's that there's no limit on that. But but the the point of of of the the book and it repeats it over and over and over again is conscious contact with God. And conscious contact with God is not arts and crafts.

It's it's just not. So do do take a five minute break. Okay.

Thank you for listening to Sober Sunrise. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up as it will help share the message. Until next time, have a great day.